The Economics of Zion.

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_Droopy
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Re: The Economics of Zion.

Post by _Droopy »

Yahoo Bot wrote:According to the Fourth Book of Nephi and early Acts, the Lord's system of economics is communism. No private ownership. Perhaps Noam Chomsky had it right.


This is, to put it very mildly, absolute, utter, undiluted, and, it must be dispiritedly noted, at the end of the day, apostate pap. This is false doctrine, false teaching, and a false and deceptive representation of what both the scriptures and the Church actually teach and have taught. The Brethren have spoken repeatedly, over the course of the 20th century, not extensively, but clearly and distinctly, on this subject, and they have been unanimous, concerted, and unambiguous in their clarifications and teaching.

Communism (socialism, technically) is Satan's counterfeit system of human social and economic relations, reduced to the level of an almost pure barbarism in both its treatment of human beings and the kind of society that is generated and stimulated over time. As a matter of practical economic functioning and human relations, it cannot work, and as a matter of moral and ethical imperatives, it should never, ever, ever be allowed the chance.

If we as a people, and most certainly, some members of the Church, cannot at some point grow up intellectually beyond the illusions and romantic infatuation of utopian collectivism and the idolatry of ideology, America and the remainder of the West will end as free, open, liberal societies, and only the second advent of the Savior will be able to rectify what will then be the dawn of a dark age the likes of which this earth has never before seen crawling on its scaled belly on the stage of human history.
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_Droopy
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Re: The Economics of Zion.

Post by _Droopy »

"Libertarianism is awesome and absolutely the form of government compatible for free agency and gospel. However,"

You clearly didn't read my OP. Some core aspects of libertarianism are clearly not compatible with the gospel, and some libertarian positions on certain issues are almost indistinguishable from those of the far left.

Modern conservatism (the fusionist form, in my view) is the most compatible and integrable with the gospel until the time comes in which a superior and divinely governed system arises and a more perfect form of government is established. However, as all truth is one, and is eternal in nature, much of this improvement will be in the sense of expanding and perfecting truths already known and understood, as well as removing defects and imperfections from certain principles and practices.

Political, social, and economic truth will still remain truth, and falsehood will still be falsehood. In a fully formed and expressed Zion society, the laws of economics will still remain true, just as the laws of heath, or of chastity.

"if someone exercises their agency in such a way that I find disagreeable, or in some way offends my religious beliefs, then Fascism is the preferred form of government."

Fascism is a sect of the Left, is totalitarian, collectivist, anti-liberal, anti-democratic, anti-individual liberty, and anti-free agency, just as is socialism/communism, and contemporary progressivism (misnamed, unfortunately, "liberalism"). Conservatives, hence, have never wanted anything to do with it, anymore than its siblings, socialism and National Socialism.
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_Droopy
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Re: The Economics of Zion.

Post by _Droopy »

Tarski wrote:
Tavares Standfield wrote:Translation:

Libertarianism is awesome and absolutely the form of government compatible for free agency and gospel. However, if someone exercises their agency in such a way that I find disagreeable, or in some way offends my religious beliefs, then Fascism is the preferred form of government.

Libertarianism for me, but not for thee!



LOL
exactly


Old McDonald had a farm...

And Tarski just bought it.
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_Droopy
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Re: The Economics of Zion.

Post by _Droopy »

bcspace wrote:"Plus detractors of this truth don't realize that God is a perfected being who, as a free market capitalist, is doing all the good possible with it. No good can be done in any other system."


Precisely, for the reason that no other system allows us to choose, against a range of alternatives and willfully applying our individual agency, to do good.

We are told what is good, how to do it, for what reasons, and also told what will happen to us if we have other ideas.

Unlike the gospel, in which we find in D&C 121:37:

That they may be conferred upon us, it is true; but when we undertake to cover our sins, or to gratify our pride, our vain ambition, or to exercise control or dominion or compulsion upon the souls of the children of men, in any degree of unrighteousness, behold, the heavens withdraw themselves; the Spirit of the Lord is grieved; and when it is withdrawn, Amen to the priesthood or the authority of that man.


And in D&C 121:46:

The Holy Ghost shall be thy constant companion, and thy scepter an unchanging scepter of righteousness and truth; and thy dominion shall be an everlasting dominion, and without compulsory means it shall flow unto thee forever and ever.
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_moksha
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Re: The Economics of Zion.

Post by _moksha »

Thought the Economics of Zion was kept tightly under wraps with only the Lord and his counterparts in the Cayman Islands being give the decryption key.

Are you guys speculating again?
Cry Heaven and let loose the Penguins of Peace
_Yahoo Bot
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Re: The Economics of Zion.

Post by _Yahoo Bot »

Droopy wrote:
Communism (socialism, technically) is Satan's counterfeit system of human social and economic relations, reduced to the level of an almost pure barbarism in both its treatment of human beings and the kind of society that is generated and stimulated over time. As a matter of practical economic functioning and human relations, it cannot work, and as a matter of moral and ethical imperatives, it should never, ever, ever be allowed the chance.



You are quite mistaken. You are simply repeating the slogans of the far right, which emphasizes the need for private property.

Communism is not the same thing as Soviet or Chinese or Cuban Communism or Lenin Communism. Communism is simply the absence of private ownership coupled with a pure democracy. The proletariat then assigns a stewardship (like, to be a house painter or a musician) to each participant, but in a true communistic society the participant has the freedom to choose his stewardship so long as the proletariat agrees that it is productive. But, to some degree, a participant will be required to bear the burdens of society, such as police protection, road improvement and the like.

I must modify my statement about 4th Nephi and Acts communism; it was communism as governed by a theocracy. Instead of the proletariat making decisions, it would be the priesthood. That is the Lord's way.
_bcspace
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Re: The Economics of Zion.

Post by _bcspace »

You are quite mistaken.


He is absolutely correct. Those philosophies are the continuation of the war in heaven here on earth. Coercion vs Agency. The Left itself considers taxation, for example, as "the coercive force that binds us together".

You are simply repeating the slogans of the far right, which emphasizes the need for private property.


Then the Gospel of Jesus Christ is, in your parlance, 'far right'.

“This procedure [of providing deeds] preserved in every man the right of private ownership and management of his property. Indeed, the fundamental principle of the system was the private ownership of property. Each man owned his portion, or inheritance, or stewardship, with an absolute title, which, at his option, he could alienate [transfer], keep and operate, or otherwise treat as his own. The Church did not own all of the property, and life under the united order was not, and never will be, a communal life, as the Prophet Joseph himself said.

http://www.LDS.org/manual/doctrine-and-covenants-student-manual/enrichments/enrichment-l-the-law-of-consecration-and-stewardship?lang=eng


Of course the Left always labels the mainstream as 'far right'. They have to as facts and reality aren't on their side.
Machina Sublime
Satan's Plan Deconstructed.
Your Best Resource On Joseph Smith's Polygamy.
Conservatism is the Gospel of Christ and the Plan of Salvation in Action.
The Degeneracy Of Progressivism.
_bcspace
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Re: The Economics of Zion.

Post by _bcspace »

Communism is not the same thing as Soviet or Chinese or Cuban Communism or Lenin Communism. Communism is simply the absence of private ownership coupled with a pure democracy. The proletariat then assigns a stewardship (like, to be a house painter or a musician) to each participant, but in a true communistic society the participant has the freedom to choose his stewardship so long as the proletariat agrees that it is productive. But, to some degree, a participant will be required to bear the burdens of society, such as police protection, road improvement and the like.

I must modify my statement about 4th Nephi and Acts communism; it was communism as governed by a theocracy. Instead of the proletariat making decisions, it would be the priesthood. That is the Lord's way.


There is nothing to equate any form of Communism with the Law of Consecration or the doctrine of the United Order. Communism removes surplus value, the incentive to do good or evil, a violation of 2 Nephi 2. The LoC isn't even an economic system (there are no price or supply controls. there is no one deciding what you do with your stewardship. etc.) but rather requires Free Market Capitalism to function.

“Socialism, wholly materialistic, is founded in the wisdom of men and not of God. Although all socialists may not be atheists, none of them in theory or practice seek the Lord to establish his righteousness.

http://www.LDS.org/manual/doctrine-and-covenants-student-manual/enrichments/enrichment-l-the-law-of-consecration-and-stewardship?lang=eng
Machina Sublime
Satan's Plan Deconstructed.
Your Best Resource On Joseph Smith's Polygamy.
Conservatism is the Gospel of Christ and the Plan of Salvation in Action.
The Degeneracy Of Progressivism.
_The Nehor
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Re: The Economics of Zion.

Post by _The Nehor »

Just so many people are aware many LDS are convinced that Droopy and BcSpace are almost always wrong about virtually everything they ever say about economics.

Furthermore they are objectively wrong when they try to determine God's voting habits. They are the equivalent of ticks imagining they can tell the way a human would vote by sucking a small quantity of blood from him.

Anyways, carry on.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics
"I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
_DarkHelmet
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Re: The Economics of Zion.

Post by _DarkHelmet »

The Mormon God is whatever the Mormon leaders want him to be. No surprise that he is a free market capitalist, as that fits the values of Mormon leaders and BC Space today. Back when the church was preaching polygamy, surprise, God was a polygamist. He is whatever the church leaders need him to be. However, any real God would have no need for man-made political and economic systems. The fact that his political and economic views are in line with the church leaders is just more proof that the Mormon God is a fictional character.
"We have taken up arms in defense of our liberty, our property, our wives, and our children; we are determined to preserve them, or die."
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