DCP Caves on Alma Argument

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_Shulem
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Re: DCP Caves on Alma Argument

Post by _Shulem »

Stocks wrote:
Shulem wrote:Hugh Nibley posited that men in Facsimile No. 3 were dressed up like women. So why can't the men in the Book of Mormon assume female names? Problem solved.

Where did he say this?

If you can stand to go in this stinky room -- watch out for the turds and the pee on the floor:

:lol:

Book of Abraham Facsimile 3: The throne scene
_moksha
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Re: DCP Caves on Alma Argument

Post by _moksha »

I spot a pattern: Fibs appear in the column, fake "Drs." step in with correct information, then the apologists pummel them with ad hominem attacks.


One interesting item was when Dr. Midgley revealed that Matt Roper keeps an archive of all exchanges for the Provo Branch of the Danite Preservation Society.
Cry Heaven and let loose the Penguins of Peace
_Doctor Scratch
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Re: DCP Caves on Alma Argument

Post by _Doctor Scratch »

consiglieri wrote:After decades of wear, and who knows how many presentations, papers, and videos, Daniel Peterson has finally thrown in the towel on the use of the name Alma to prove the authenticity of the Book of Mormon.

He just put up a blog post at SeN last night officially giving up the fight.

This happened one day after he was publicly shamed on Bill Reel's Facebook page over the issue.

It would be useful, for the sake of historical reference, if someone would kindly post the material that appeared on Facebook.
"[I]f, while hoping that everybody else will be honest and so forth, I can personally prosper through unethical and immoral acts without being detected and without risk, why should I not?." --Daniel Peterson, 6/4/14
_Markk
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Re: DCP Caves on Alma Argument

Post by _Markk »

Grudunza wrote:He just needs to realize that virtually all other apologetic evidence has the same end result,


This is so true...in the end it all leads to the same empty broken promise of Moroni 10. Virtually most every doctrine, and historical fact leads to a different reality of what these guys attempt to defend.

He knows it; he has too. What it comes down to in weighing the investment. My guess is that he is living in the same closet Thomas Ferguson and most of us here have or do live in now. He is in “ it’s a great club to belong to” and/or “I don’t want to rock the family boat,” with a added “ I don’t want to get fired and tarnish what is left of my life’s work as a defender of the faith.”

I was blessed and accepted the realities fairly quick after investigating the dark side of Mormonism for the first time (2 years at the most)...I simply could not imagine carrying that load for decades like some of these older mopologists must be doing.
Don't take life so seriously in that " sooner or later we are just old men in funny clothes" "Tom 'T-Bone' Wolk"
_Dr Exiled
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Re: DCP Caves on Alma Argument

Post by _Dr Exiled »

Yet another "how could joseph have known" silly argument flushed down the toilet. The number of times this has happened has to be numerous.
"Religion is about providing human community in the guise of solving problems that don’t exist or failing to solve problems that do and seeking to reconcile these contradictions and conceal the failures in bogus explanations otherwise known as theology." - Kishkumen 
_Everybody Wang Chung
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Re: DCP Caves on Alma Argument

Post by _Everybody Wang Chung »

I guess this means that FAIR will be updating their entry on Alma soon:
https://www.fairmormon.org/evidences/So ... _male_name


And I guess this means Jeff Lindsay will be updating his website soon too:
https://mormanity.blogspot.com/2006/01/ ... -male.html


And also the Interpreter:
https://www.mormoninterpreter.com/some- ... mon-names/


And, also about 50 other apologetic websites....
"I'm on paid sabbatical from BYU in exchange for my promise to use this time to finish two books."

Daniel C. Peterson, 2014
_Sanctorian
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Re: DCP Caves on Alma Argument

Post by _Sanctorian »

DCP says
I wasn’t, of course, seeking to deceive anybody. I was speaking honestly, as I routinely do, on the basis of the information that I had at the time.


And

If true, though, it would obviously weaken somewhat — though I don’t think that it wholly obviates — my suggestion that Alma represents minor but genuine evidence for the Book of Mormon’s authentic antiquity. But I would want to know how likely Joseph Smith would have been to know of men named Alma. How common was the name among males in early America? Did certain regions favor it more than others? If so, where? In places with which Joseph Smith was familiar?


But wait

Since that time, though, I’ve been told that, in fact, there were some non-Latter-day Saint American men before and during the period of Joseph Smith who may have borne the name Alma. (The computerization of genealogical and census materials makes searches for such names far easier than they were even just a few years ago.) I haven’t personally investigated this claim, since Alma isn’t a topic that I address much any more. Perhaps I’ll do it, sometime, but my current priorities lie elsewhere.


However

So, in numerous public presentations and perhaps elsewhere, I countered with evidence that Alma is, in fact, a demonstrably ancient Semitic masculine personal name.


So let me summarize. It’s easier now than ever to search the records and see that Alma was in fact a masculine name used in Joseph Smith’s time. But because the evidence is contrary to the public position of DCP, he doesn’t have much time to invest in looking at the latest evidence. So, he’d much rather spend the exact same amount of time it takes to do the research and write a blog post about how he would want to know how common the name was in Joseph Smith’s time.

Simply astounding.
I'm a Ziontologist. I self identify as such.
_Markk
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Re: DCP Caves on Alma Argument

Post by _Markk »

This is his MO...he “studies” what is convenient, which in all reality are talking points... or subjective material that allow wiggle room. Once the talking point or subjective material runs it coarse and goes full circle where it demands an objective answer, or debate...he has no time for the subject and/or more often with the “critic” that exposed his surface level knowledge on the subject.

I once had a discussion with him on the nature of the LDS God and how he became a God, and how man can become a God, according to LDS theology. I used a Melk. PH teaching manual (Gospel Through The Ages) that was a staple for a few decades in the church as my main source of information. This manual to this day has the clearest authoritative teachings on how God became a God and how man can become a God, with equal nature.

He denounced most of what I wrote and finally admitted he, then a leading LDS apologist, had never read it and had only recently even heard of this manual because his in-laws gave him a copy...but that he still hadn’t read it. Yet the he was more than happy to disregard my quotes from it.

Then, in another discussion about Joseph having a gun, he stated and defended profoundly that there was artist that painted a picture of Joseph with a gun in the early 20th century that some how was evidence that the church taught that Joesph shot folks in his defense. And again, he had not read maybe the most important authoritative work on the nature of the LDS God that has ever been written.

Bottom line my point is...LDS mopology is a “discipline” of convenience, there is no room for anything that objectively disagrees with their preconceived agenda and talking point sloppy theology, and baseless conclusions. The war with the Heartlanders shows they will even eat their own in protecting their talking point based conclusions.

At least DCP took a huge step here...maybe his time out from the NMI has given him a different view of his fruitless attempts to defend the undefendable.

Maybe the next admission will be Joseph may have been inclined to partake of the Castor Canadensis for purely personal, and not religious reasons.
Don't take life so seriously in that " sooner or later we are just old men in funny clothes" "Tom 'T-Bone' Wolk"
_Shulem
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Re: DCP Caves on Alma Argument

Post by _Shulem »

Everybody Wang Chung wrote:And I guess this means Jeff Lindsay will be updating his website soon too:
https://mormanity.blogspot.com/2006/01/ ... -male.html


Jeff Lindsay wrote:Are you aware of any critics that have provided a meaningful explanation of the numerous Hebrew influences found among Book of Mormon names?


Maybe there were men named "ALMA" in Joseph Smith's day and perhaps he even met one? That's plausible. It could be.

Jeff Lindsay wrote:Now if Ethan Smith or Solomon Spaulding had used the male name Alma and other names in the Book of Mormon, the case for plagiarism might be much stronger.


No need for for that. There were men named "Alma" in Joseph Smith's day and no doubt he heard or even met one? Right?
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