Mormon leaders have to stop this

[Rivendale]

John would have been better off leaving out his commentary.

I thought he gave very good advice in a precise manner.

John gets a lot of criticism from the faithful for creating the conditions for a faith crisis and then profiting from it. I think it is a strange way to attack him but it is happening. Even though he repeatedly says that it isn't his goal to attack the church or create exmormons believers think he is. He seems to be stuck in a paradox of tolerance with no way out. That church leader said enough self destructive dialogue as it stood on its own. I don't think the commentary was needed.

[Chap]

John would have been better off leaving out his commentary.

I thought he gave very good advice in a precise manner.

Me too.

I mean, saying to a young person "Don't let anybody tell you that they know what's best for you in your life" can hardly be said to be dictating to them.

It's pointing out to them that ultimately they have the right to decide that for themselves - even if they ultimately come to the conclusion that the best thing for them to do is to enter the noviciate of an enclosed contemplative religious order, it's up to them to make that decision, not up to some old guy to tell them that <name of some deity> has revealed to him that this is what the young person should do.

[dastardly stem]

John gets a lot of criticism from the faithful for creating the conditions for a faith crisis and then profiting from it. I think it is a strange way to attack him but it is happening. Even though he repeatedly says that it isn't his goal to attack the church or create exmormons believers think he is. He seems to be stuck in a paradox of tolerance with no way out. That church leader said enough self destructive dialogue as it stood on its own. I don't think the commentary was needed.

I don't mean to hone in on John as being the bad guy, but the criticisms have some merit to it, it seems. He is profitting off of people's misfortune. I don't think we can deny that. And every time he gets like this, as seen in this video, it raises suspicion that the moves are very strategic. This is just a mess, if you ask me.

I don't know for instance how one goes from saying: "Don't let anybody tell you that they know what's best for you in your life." after having just said: "Your main job in life right now, is to work hard to figure out what is healthiest for you and what you want in your life."

So don't let anyone tell you what's best for you, right after saying what's best for them? I think that's odd. Of course kids should take advice from people, particularly trusted people, about what they should do and what they think is best for them. He's being overly dramatic and it only comes off as manipulation to believers, I'd think.

It's just a fact we are limited in choices, but John gets imprecise and overly dramatic. It's simply, often, a wise practice for parents to tell kids what they should do. It is silly for John to try and speak to kids of the Church with the message of "Do not accept Church teaching which tell you what to do" then turn around offering them fatherly counsel which includes telling them what they should do. We have all have ideas what we think kids should do. And that's not necessarily bad. What's bad in the teaching from the leader is obvious. Point that out, please. Make that the point--not your advice to the youth of the Church. It's as if he's trying to set up his future audience so he can continue to collect their money.

This has nothing to do with whether I agree with him or not. Or whether the Church teaching here is problematic or not. The problem is, believers see this, and rightly, see in it the very type of manipulation he complains about. And frankly many believers would probably agree with him on the message from this leader. If he played the clip and said, "this is terrible. Kids shouldn't feel guilty if they choose not to go on a mission, and of course, without a doubt, it's a choice...for them...and no one else." It'd be about 10X better. Instead he seems to be trying to do more with it.

[dastardly stem]

Me too.

I mean, saying to a young person "Don't let anybody tell you that they know what's best for you in your life" can hardly be said to be dictating to them.

That sentence there defines what dictating to someone is. How is it not? Telling someone "don't pull your pants down" is to dictate to them. It matters not if there is a good reason why they shouldn't pull their pants down. Dictating to people isn't bad in itself. That's the big problem with John's whole commentary. He dictated to them--don't let anyone tell you to do something...this immediately after dictating to them the most important thing they should be doing. It feels pretty manipulative and sneaky to me.

But he's right...this teaching from this leader is ugly.

[Dr. Shades]

Dr. Shades, I tend to agree and also think you should consider the same for the massive threads Elizabeth has posted up in the Celestial forum. Lots of cut and paste and nothing of any substance from her. Thus, I think you are a bit of a hypocrite in this instance for letting it go on and on, wouldn't you say?

No, for two reasons: 1) I never check the Celestial forum and therefore have no idea what Elizabeth is or isn't doing there, and 2) I stepped down from actively moderating a few months ago.

How does the following rule apply to Elizabeth's massive cut and paste threads? Explain yourself, Shades!

"Cut-and-paste" is not the same thing as "link-and-run."

[Chap]

Me too.

I mean, saying to a young person "Don't let anybody tell you that they know what's best for you in your life" can hardly be said to be dictating to them.

That sentence there defines what dictating to someone is. How is it not? Telling someone "don't pull your pants down" is to dictate to them. It matters not if there is a good reason why they shouldn't pull their pants down. Dictating to people isn't bad in itself. That's the big problem with John's whole commentary. He dictated to them--don't let anyone tell you to do something...this immediately after dictating to them the most important thing they should be doing. It feels pretty manipulative and sneaky to me.

But he's right...this teaching from this leader is ugly.

So ... if a person is addressing young Mormons, who spend much of their lives being dictated to by elderly men, what precise turn of phrase could that person use to warn them against simply doing whatever those elderly men tell them to do, without you accusing him of 'dictating' to them himself?

[Shulem]

"Cut-and-paste" is not the same thing as "link-and-run."

I know that, but it's similar. Rather than just a link with no explanation, it's pasted material from a copywritten site and no explanation for that material. It's CUT, PASTE, and RUN! It's transferring whole material from one website to another.

Look, I don't know how long or how much of that you'll continue to put up with. You have to decide that but it clearly goes against the spirit of the rules you made. Honestly, I think you (someone) should throw her threads into the spam folder because that's really what it is.

[Shulem]

No, for two reasons: 1) I never check the Celestial forum and therefore have no idea what Elizabeth is or isn't doing there, and 2) I stepped down from actively moderating a few months ago.

Here's to hoping a moderator will eventually get fed up and toss her threads into spam. Readers can go to the actual site if they want to read all that copywritten material. It doesn't need to be fully transferred to this board. That's just not right. This board is not intended to mirror content from other websites and certainly not without discussion and explanation for the material being pasted. It's ridiculous and your board is being taken advantage of.

I think the moderator up their in Celestial should pull her plug.

[BeNotDeceived]

It's been well over 8 years now since the 'church' released the 12 essays on its website (er, buried) admitting that what was once considered anti-Mormon literature is actually true, among these being the fact that Smith created the B of M not by 'translating' anything since no gold plates were even used in the process, but by looking at a rock in a hat and orally dictating a fictitious story, the same rock he used to scam people out of their money claiming he could see buried treasure in the bowels of the earth when he admitted to his own FIL that it was all a ruse, yet, here's a member of a stake presidency telling the youth of the 'church' they have no choice but to give two years of their lives to perpetuate a fraud. Incredible. If this douchebag, who says our youth have no agency when it comes to serving a mission, is aware of the essays and the fact that his religion is big sham contrived by a con-man, then his comments are even more deplorable, shameful and disgusting. No agency... gee, whose plan was that in the supposed pre-existence? This guy needs to be released from his position ASAP before he spouts anymore absurd drivel to our youth! Even more hypocritical is the 'church' telling its 'members' to act with honesty and integrity in all they do as they continue to send young missionaries out into the world at their own cost of $500/mo. as they sit on ungodly amounts of money in the hundreds of billions to perpetuate a narrative to investigators that they admitted 8 years ago wasn't how it happened. You can't make up this stuff!!

[dastardly stem]

So ... if a person is addressing young Mormons, who spend much of their lives being dictated to by elderly men, what precise turn of phrase could that person use to warn them against simply doing whatever those elderly men tell them to do, without you accusing him of 'dictating' to them himself?

I'm really not following, Chap. What makes you think dictating a message to youth is wrong? Why is it an accusation to point out his dictated message is dictated? That's more of an observation, I'd think.

The point is simple here. He says:

Your main job in life right now, is to work hard to figure out what is healthiest for you and what you want in your life.

So he tells them that he knows what's best for them in their life, and says it. then he says:

Don't let anybody tell you that they know what's best for you in your life.

So which is it, he knows what's best for them, and tells them, or they should not let anyone tell them what's best for them?

And there's plenty more problematic with what he said in that video.

I mean, am I wrong here? I figure he makes money off of people's misfortune with faith loss--some say quite a lot of money. Good for him. I'm ok with it. But that tells me he should be very responsible in how he speaks publicly. He shouldn't be offering confused messages that appear manipulative (particularly to a faithful person's ears), especially when he's complaining about the leaders being manipulative. That's just manipulation.