Playing out religious hopes and desires

[dastardly stem]

The liberal Christians I know begin by saying they don't know. But then say that they believe that in the end, being with God will end all of our suffering and worries. And that Jesus' sacrifice is essentially a promise from God that everyone will be saved. Since Jesus is the final judge, and most Christians don't see Jesus sending anyone to everlasting torment.

The main point of the New Testament, as I read it, is that Jesus is begging us to stop worrying about all of this. He is trying to explain that all of these earthly concerns do not matter after death. That the only thing that matters after death is love. In a very whispy, immaterial, but overwhelmingly good sense.

There are of course verses to suggest otherwise, but we also know that the New Testament is not at all a completely accurate portrait of Jesus. So the general character of Jesus, IMHO, is what should be gleaned from reading it.

Yeah...I don't know what to make of thoughts about a Jesus who was a wise healer. He seemed nice sometimes, extra ornery and easily miffed other times, but also was pretty focused on sending people to hell in a hand basket at other times, it seems to me. Like with the nice 5 virgins who were putting off getting their lamps trimmed. Jesus "never knew" them and wouldn't let them into heaven. Or the many believers who tried to do good things on his behalf and believed in him, but were apparently too terrible for heaven, having built their houses on sand. The bad seeds, the tares amongst the wheat were all too bad of people for him, I guess. But as you suggest, if there was a Jesus who lived, he didn't speak greek. But whatever words were put into his mouth were written in greek by some unknown people. Who knows what he really would have said?

[drumdude]

The liberal Christians I know begin by saying they don't know. But then say that they believe that in the end, being with God will end all of our suffering and worries. And that Jesus' sacrifice is essentially a promise from God that everyone will be saved. Since Jesus is the final judge, and most Christians don't see Jesus sending anyone to everlasting torment.

The main point of the New Testament, as I read it, is that Jesus is begging us to stop worrying about all of this. He is trying to explain that all of these earthly concerns do not matter after death. That the only thing that matters after death is love. In a very whispy, immaterial, but overwhelmingly good sense.

There are of course verses to suggest otherwise, but we also know that the New Testament is not at all a completely accurate portrait of Jesus. So the general character of Jesus, IMHO, is what should be gleaned from reading it.

Yeah...I don't know what to make of thoughts about a Jesus who was a wise healer. He seemed nice sometimes, extra ornery and easily miffed other times, but also was pretty focused on sending people to hell in a hand basket at other times, it seems to me. Like with the nice 5 virgins who were putting off getting their lamps trimmed. Jesus "never knew" them and wouldn't let them into heaven. Or the many believers who tried to do good things on his behalf and believed in him, but were apparently too terrible for heaven, having built their houses on sand. The bad seeds, the tares amongst the wheat were all too bad of people for him, I guess. But as you suggest, if there was a Jesus who lived, he didn't speak greek. But whatever words were put into his mouth were written in greek by some unknown people. Who knows what he really would have said?

That’s my thoughts on it. I would consider what he may have said that made his ideals appeal to so many millions of people over 2000 years rather than get lost in the details.

His ideas were revolutionary, and still are today. I think they’ve shaped human history in a tremendously positive way. Are they proof of anything divine? I’m skeptical but certainly hopeful that after we die there is something wonderful like that after.

[huckelberry]

The liberal Christians I know begin by saying they don't know. But then say that they believe that in the end, being with God will end all of our suffering and worries. And that Jesus' sacrifice is essentially a promise from God that everyone will be saved. Since Jesus is the final judge, and most Christians don't see Jesus sending anyone to everlasting torment.

The main point of the New Testament, as I read it, is that Jesus is begging us to stop worrying about all of this. He is trying to explain that all of these earthly concerns do not matter after death. That the only thing that matters after death is love. In a very whispy, immaterial, but overwhelmingly good sense.

There are of course verses to suggest otherwise, but we also know that the New Testament is not at all a completely accurate portrait of Jesus. So the general character of Jesus, IMHO, is what should be gleaned from reading it.

Yeah...I don't know what to make of thoughts about a Jesus who was a wise healer. He seemed nice sometimes, extra ornery and easily miffed other times, but also was pretty focused on sending people to hell in a hand basket at other times, it seems to me. Like with the nice 5 virgins who were putting off getting their lamps trimmed. Jesus "never knew" them and wouldn't let them into heaven. Or the many believers who tried to do good things on his behalf and believed in him, but were apparently too terrible for heaven, having built their houses on sand. The bad seeds, the tares amongst the wheat were all too bad of people for him, I guess. But as you suggest, if there was a Jesus who lived, he didn't speak greek. But whatever words were put into his mouth were written in greek by some unknown people. Who knows what he really would have said?

I might not qualify as completely liberal. I am inclined to think there are real reasons for Jesus to have been angry. I am inclined to think that preacher Wright had a point when he said god d America. There is a whole list of d good reasons to say God sees in America things to rouse the wrath of damnation. Slavery lynching, brutal treatment of natives, segregation, riots where whites got together to kill blacks. I live in a country which is an excellent hope in some ways, place of real achievemens and a moral horror at times.

The idea of an eternal hell makes it confusing to talk about how Gods wrath relates to the realities of our life (and the lives of people in many other places as well) The hellish suffering that people can create is very real. but black and white judgements confuse the problem. Some people who heard (probably selected fragments) of the g d america sermon did not hear the hope for America in it.

Jesus lived in a time of great political danger. He saw real hope in his country he also say real failure. He chose vivid imagery to express what he saw , people choosing the path of destruction. His country managed to demonstrate that destruction. I see no point in brushing aside harsh angry Jesus. I doubt that part was made up. I think the ossification of the hell theory in the centuries following the first close our eyes or confuses what Jesus was saying .

I think the idea of purgatory punishment and learning aimed to a better outcome is a better idea. I might fit drumdudes liberal in the sense that I do not know how it can work out. I do not see a crystal ball telling the future in the Bible. I can live with a number of I don't knows.

[dastardly stem]

I might not qualify as completely liberal. I am inclined to think there are real reasons for Jesus to have been angry. I am inclined to think that preacher Wright had a point when he said god d America. There is a whole list of d good reasons to say God sees in America things to rouse the wrath of damnation. Slavery lynching, brutal treatment of natives, segregation, riots where whites got together to kill blacks. I live in a country which is an excellent hope in some ways, place of real achievemens and a moral horror at times.

The idea of an eternal hell makes it confusing to talk about how Gods wrath relates to the realities of our life (and the lives of people in many other places as well) The hellish suffering that people can create is very real. but black and white judgements confuse the problem. Some people who heard (probably selected fragments) of the g d america sermon did not hear the hope for America in it.

Jesus lived in a time of great political danger. He saw real hope in his country he also say real failure. He chose vivid imagery to express what he saw , people choosing the path of destruction. His country managed to demonstrate that destruction. I see no point in brushing aside harsh angry Jesus. I doubt that part was made up. I think the ossification of the hell theory in the centuries following the first close our eyes or confuses what Jesus was saying .

I think the idea of purgatory punishment and learning aimed to a better outcome is a better idea. I might fit drumdudes liberal in the sense that I do not know how it can work out. I do not see a crystal ball telling the future in the Bible. I can live with a number of I don't knows.

Thanks Huckelberry.

It does seem to me that a big part of our problem is that nobody knows. Yet religion gives the impression that they do know. People look forward to seeing loved ones again...but nobody knows that'll happen. People look forward to meeting God...but nobody knows that will happen. People think all ailments will be healed, but nobody knows any of that. They hope. They may have faith, but they don't know. And I don't know what we ought to do when the preaching is as if they all really do know that which they don't.

I was talking to a Christian friend the other day who told me every unfortunate ailment or situation that people get here will be fixed or they'll be healed by God. Either in this life or the next. He admitted as we talked that God hasn't been shown to heal anyone in this life as we discussed. If someone is healed of cancer, that simply happens to be a natural option. If one claims God healed them of cancer, they are simply placing God in the place of an unknown--how did my cancer go away? But cancer has been known to go away--be beaten, at times by our own immune system even. There's no unexplainable miracle there. He agreed. What if God chooses to not save someone? Will they be healed? He did not know. God saves those who believe in him, he added. But that feels like another unknown that gets states as if someone knows, right?

But I asked if it is true, God hasn't healed anyone on earth, how can we be sure he'll heal them afterward? He ultimately didn't know. I wondered aloud, is it a good idea to preach things as if we know when we don't? He went on about the goodness of faith and life continued for us each.

In a sense it seems like its okay for believers to pretend that healing will happen by God. They end up with hope, I suppose, they continue with a desire for a better or diefferent world. And that probably gives us all this feeling of "Ahh...I mean believe what you want". But along with that sort of thought comes all sorts of problems--I mean just look at the history of Christianity and the evil things done in the name of Christ for starters...but even today simple things like judgments come. Self-righteousness permeates and all of that. But I suppose without Christianity we have to realize many of the problems that we attribute to Christianity would be happening anyway under some other imprimatur.

In another way, though, I'd much rather think we can all push for what is true. Christians tell me, as do Mormons, that they have truth, the real truth, as if truth is something other than what humans by reason can attain. Its almost like the subtle goal gets thrown in there to just slightly push people off the path we all ought to be on, if we really wish to pursue truth and goodness. I think it's a tough question and tough thought, that we ought to at least think about...so I kind of push on it.

[dastardly stem]

That’s my thoughts on it. I would consider what he may have said that made his ideals appeal to so many millions of people over 2000 years rather than get lost in the details.

His ideas were revolutionary, and still are today. I think they’ve shaped human history in a tremendously positive way. Are they proof of anything divine? I’m skeptical but certainly hopeful that after we die there is something wonderful like that after.

It seems his ideas are simply ideas shared through myths from various peoples in ancient societies. If so, its probably best to admit there is nothing unique or special to him, if there was a him. It just so happens after him, a huge force of a religion arose and was underlying all of western society for many centuries. In the end it was much less him and more about tons of people trying to figure things out.

[drumdude]

That’s my thoughts on it. I would consider what he may have said that made his ideals appeal to so many millions of people over 2000 years rather than get lost in the details.

His ideas were revolutionary, and still are today. I think they’ve shaped human history in a tremendously positive way. Are they proof of anything divine? I’m skeptical but certainly hopeful that after we die there is something wonderful like that after.

It seems his ideas are simply ideas shared through myths from various peoples in ancient societies. If so, its probably best to admit there is nothing unique or special to him, if there was a him. It just so happens after him, a huge force of a religion arose and was underlying all of western society for many centuries. In the end it was much less him and more about tons of people trying to figure things out.

That’s certainly possible. I lean on the side that there was a historical Jesus and that he was the genesis of some of the ideas but certainly not all.

[dastardly stem]

That’s certainly possible. I lean on the side that there was a historical Jesus and that he was the genesis of some of the ideas but certainly not all.

What was original to him?

[drumdude]

That’s certainly possible. I lean on the side that there was a historical Jesus and that he was the genesis of some of the ideas but certainly not all.

What was original to him?

I don’t think it’s possible to tease out exactly what was. But there’s very good evidence Jesus existed historically and that coincided with the spread of the ideas.

I think the fact that Paul’s ideas were in many cases distinct from Jesus’ ideas and didn’t spread as universally is strong evidence that it wasn’t just people around Jesus creating all of these ideas.

[Rivendale]

The idea of Mormon afterlife was so depressing to me. I couldn't imagine finding joy in being raised in exaltation. What a mess!

After working out 150 billion or so spirit babies God says, "there that ought to be enough to get us going." Soon though a third of those, some 50 billion, rebelled against his plan because it upset one particular noble and great one. "How dare he not select Lucifer who wanted to get everyone back to a joyous union?" they sang as they prepared for battle against an apparently all-knowing and all-powerful one.

"Off with you to suffer in outer darkness" cried God, after they were defeated in some sort of battle. "Some more of these bastards will be joining you someday. You may have power to bruise his heal but he'll have power to crush your head" or something. I guess that meant God wanted to use these defeated souls to tease and tempt His favored children generating adversity to strengthen them. But also, as the sad result will show, tying up the others in chains as they're dragged back to outer darkness. "It'd been better you were never born" the Great God thunders at the day of their judgment.

Picking the story back up:

"Wait", said God just as he started sending some to their mortal sojourns, "I need to put a vail over your memory so you don't remember me, ensuring many of you won't come back to me...

"No, you chose this--no backing out now. Some of you might, just might, get strong enough to come back and even get to be gods yourselves. This vail is necessary for you to achieve that.

"I don't know...it just is. Don't fret though, I'll send this other noble and great character down sometime into earth's existence and he'll walk around on an obscure spot for a while until some of you decide to kill him (ya dammed devils)...and...For some reason his death will be meaningful and will give you a chance to come back.

"I don't know that's just how it is. Just believe in him, if you get a chance.

"A 'chance' because I'm not supposed to...errrr...I won't give anyone much reason to believe in him or me for that matter...so it'll be tough. But, just try. It'll be for your good. Cheer up...it'll work out ok.

"Yeahh...yeahh..true some of you are less valiant and it's likely most of you won't have much chance to be Gods, but I stagger ya a bit.

"yes, I"m saving some noble and great ones for the end. I have to. That's how the little tiny Church I finally get settled will get bishops, Stake Presidents, yea, even, apostles.

"I don't know what makes ya noble and great...some of you just are. You're a bit more valiant than some of the rest of ya.

"Yes, that group over there were the "fence sitters" when your siblings got upset. And its true they will most definitely not have a legit shot in all of this, but that's their fault...."

Back when I was trying to stay on board:

"Oh boy" I wondered, "can't wait until I might someday be making a bunch of spirit babies, many of which will be made for the sole purpose of suffering eternally(?). I can't wait to watch the rest of them live wretched lives, well, most of them anyway. For some reason my life's been good, but apparently most have it rough. I can't wait to see most suffering ungodly pain, loneliness etc. I can't wait to sit and watch all of that while doing nothing to help out except maybe send a few good vibes to those who believe enough to reach out to me...or I mean reach out to me with sincerity. But those few who I (?) choose from the many I(?) call will get crowned with glory and honor for all these silly sounding arbitrary reasons(?).

"I mean can't wait.... Oh, yeah...and these crowned folks gotta still worship and praise me forever?

"Maybe it sounds terrible a bunch of people are suffering forever on this plan, but some of will be happy(?)." <gulp> "I'm so happy looking forward to all of this."

It was nice accepting real hell was believing this...real hell would have certainly been getting exalted into God's grand kingdom.

"Oh what's this? Time to go again? Time to work out another 150 billion to start the whole process again? Oh God! I can't wait!"

"Don't invoke my name and lament to me", my Heavenly Daddy in the hierarchy just above me says. "You chose this path just like I did before you. We have no choice but to play along now."

"Wait...you told me free agency was essential for the plan and once it was all acheived we'd be free to choose some more..."

"I know. I finally realized the same about the time you are now...nope...Not free. The plan was set in motion forever ago and we can't really change it."

Oh boy what joy!

I think...I think believers go along with this not because they are awful people who play out the logic of the teachings and see how terrible it all would be but because they stop thinking as soon as they feel excited about continuing life after death...or something. I don't know...what do you think? Why does anyone go along with this?

I know I specified this for Mormonism, but it works for Christianity in general too. Since it seems to play out similarly with saved vs those who aren't saved and misery for many. Why do believers go along with such tragedy and think its a good thing?

I know of some believers who can't wait to create worlds just for hunting animals. Some who look forward to multiple wives. And some who just love the idea of eternal worship with their families. Such a strange world religious ideas create.

[dastardly stem]

I don’t think it’s possible to tease out exactly what was. But there’s very good evidence Jesus existed historically and that coincided with the spread of the ideas.

Hmmm...I'm not sure these claims are true. But that's ok. I find this stuff very fascinating but know people get pretty worked up about it, even here. I suppose I would just hope for one thing that was unique. If there was, that'd be something. If it was something like the parable of the 10 virgins...well that's not a good teaching, as i see it, and wouldn't think we could credit Jesus with changing the world, nor could we say his ideas were revolutionary.

It seems most agree, other than Christians through faith, would say the Jesus character found in the New Testament is myth for the most part. It'd be pretty impressive if anything an aramaic speaking Jesus said was found in the New Testament. There simply isn't any eyewitness accounts of his life and no one seemed to have followed him around recording his teachings having them ready to pass on to others. And as many have noted the gospels aren't written as an attempt at documenting an accurate history particularly since they intentionally incorporate mythic ideas which ancients simply used to tell stories about great characters and gods.

But I think most also would say a person Jesus existed, despite there not being good evidence to show he did, but say so simply because it's probable someone named Jesus lived back then and it's quite possible that after he died people started the myth of his extraordinariness. But I don't see that as good evidence, or evidence at all. That'd be more like describing a possibility and using that as a narrative to fill the gaps of our knowledge. I also haven't seen any solid effort ("solid" because Bart Ehrman wrote a book on it but I think it fails miserably and was written as a popular work not a scholarly one) by a qualified scholar to seriously engage the question and come out saying Jesus probably existed. That kind of puts the conversation on the matter at a standstill, it seems. Critiques of those who say Jesus probably or might not have existed, seem to suffer from the same type of problem as Ehrman's work, it seems to me.

But, again, not sure that all matters much. I'd be more interested in seeing if we can really say something like Jesus had revolutionary ideas, or changed the world. Many scholars I read from suggest basically the opposite--he didn't have revolutionary ideas, any attributed to him are simply summaries of ideas already floating around.

I think the fact that Paul’s ideas were in many cases distinct from Jesus’ ideas and didn’t spread as universally is strong evidence that it wasn’t just people around Jesus creating all of these ideas.

Admittedly I'm not following this line of reasoning very clearly. Yes, Paul didn't preach the things that the later gospels put into Jesus' mouth, but that seems to indicate Paul was either unaware of what Jesus taught (if we grant anything in the New Testament represents something Jesus taught), wanted subsequent followers of the Jesus movement to think differently than what Jesus taught, or there was no such teachings coming from a Jesus. And there may be other possibilities to consider. I don't see how this gives evidence that Jesus had unique teachings and sayings that survived to the writing of Mark and those which did were the basis of revolutionary ideas.