Vogel's first short on YouTube

[drumdude]

Great short! My only criticism would be the substandard audio quality, I'd recommend investing in a good quality microphone and compare it to the sound quality of a Mormon Stories short for comparison.

[Shulem]

Revelation, 20 July 1831 [D&C 57]. The wording of the September 1830 revelation that declared Zion would be “among the Lamanites” was later changed—probably in late 1831—to “it shall be on the borders by the Lamanites.” Ezra Booth, a former member of the church who was highly critical of Joseph Smith, declared in a December 1831 letter, “As a City and a Temple must be built, as every avenue leading to the Indians was closed against the Mormonites, it was thought that they should be built among the Gentiles, which is in direct opposition to the original plan.”

Indeed, the original "plan" or original "revelation" specifically stated that the city would be built in Indian territory rather than in Gentile territory! But Mormon God was thwarted and officials of the US government shut him down! The revelation was denied and the prophecy failed.

Let's turn to Mormonism Unvailed (1834) by E.D.Howe and see exactly what Ezra Booth had to say. His letters were published in the Ohio Star as a testimonial of his firsthand experience with Mormonism that lasted less than a year. Booth gives us the real scoop rather than apologetic BS that Mormons have dished out since Smith first organized the church -- the Joseph Smith Papers is no exception and maintains a coverup in promoting only faith promoting scholarship. Booth was an eyewitness and had firsthand experience in this affair and helps clarify matters regarding the false prophecy. Here are some snips from his account that pay direct reference to the very subject matter Vogel introduced in his short:

• You are not, it is probable, ignorant of the designs of my most singular and romantic undertaking: sufficient to say, it was for the purpose of exploring the promised land—laying the foundation of the city of Zion, and placing the corner stone of the temple of God. A journey of one thousand miles to the west, has taught me far more abundantly...

• It has unfolded in its proper character, a delusion to which I had fallen a victim, and taught me the humiliating truth, that I was exerting the powers of both my mind and body, and sacrificing my time and property, to build up a system of delusion, almost unparalleled in the annals of the world.

• On our arrival in the western part of the State of Missouri, the place of our destination, we discovered that prophecy and vision had failed, or rather had proved false.—This fact was so notorious, and the evidence so clear, that no one could mistake it—so much so, that Mr. Rigdon himself said, that "Joseph's vision was a bad thing." This was glossed over, apparently, to the satisfaction of most persons present; but not fully to my own. It excited a suspicion that some things were not right, and prepared my mind for the investigation of a variety of circumstances, which occurred during my residence there, and indeed, to review the whole subject, from its commencement to that time.

• From Kirtland, Cowdery & Co. were directed by the spirit to Sandusky, where they contemplated opening their mission, and proselyting the Indians residing at that place. But neither Cowdery, nor the spirit which directed him, was able to open the way to, or make any impression upon their minds.

• It appears that he was fearful that his infallible guide, (the spirit,) was incapable to direct him, while proceeding further to the west; consequently, he applied to men more capable of giving instruction than the spirit, by which he was influenced. When he arrived at the western line of Missouri, he passed into the Indian territory, where he remained but a short time, before he was notified by the U. S. Agent, that he must either re-cross the line, or be compelled to take up his residence in the garrison, forty miles up the Arkansas river. As there was no other alternative, the former seemed to him the most expedient; and he never possessed courage sufficient to pass the line, or visit the residence of the Indians since.

• Thus you behold a man, "called and commanded of the Lord God, to go forth unto the Lamanites," and establish his church among them; but no sooner is he set down in the field of his mission, and surrounded by his anticipated converts, than he is driven by a comparative nothing, from the field, and obliged to relinquish his contemplated harvest.—This is the person commissioned by the Lord to proceed to the western wilds, and as he himself stated, "to the place where the foot of a white man never trod," to rear up a pillar for a witness, where the temple of God shall be built, in the glorious New Jerusalem.

• But alas! he was arrested by man in his course, and by the breath of man the mighty undertaking was blown into the air, and Cowdery was thrown back among the Gentiles, to wait for the spirit to devise some new plans in the place of those which had been frustrated. But as the city and temple must be built, as every avenue leading to the Indians was closed against the Mormonites, it was thought that they should be built among the Gentiles, which is in direct opposition to the original plan—as foreign from the design of the spirit, expressed in several commandments, as it would have been had the Directors, who were appointed to build the court-house in Ravenna, built it in Trumbull county, foreign from the design of those who intrusted them with the business.

• Another method has been invented, in order to remove obstacles which hitherto had proved insurmountable.

Hence, Jackson Country Missouri became the center place and spot of ground in which the temple would be built and that prophecy failed too. Special thanks to Ezra Booth for explaining this to us!

[Shulem]

Prior to the revelation (1830) about the city of Zion being built within Indian territory among the Lamanites, God warned everyone not to reject his words regarding the gospel and ministry:

Verily, verily, I say unto you, if they reject my words, and this part of my gospel and ministry, blessed are ye, for they can do no more unto you than unto me.

In God's next breath, he promises that those who reject not his words will be blessed and be able to carry out their labors with joy:

But if they reject not my words, which shall be established by the  testimony which shall be given, blessed are they, and then shall ye have joy in the fruit of your labors.

Now, with that said, recall earlier how Smith had to deal with the missing 116 pages of the original Book of Mormon manuscript that was lost or stolen. What was the so-called word of God regarding that?

10 And, behold,  Satan hath put it into their hearts to alter the words which you have caused to be written, or which you have translated, which have gone out of your hands.
11 And behold, I say unto you, that because they have altered the words, they read contrary from that which you translated and caused to be written;
12 And, on this wise, the devil has sought to lay a cunning plan, that he may destroy this work;

So, when Joseph Smith realized that his revelation given by commandment to built the city among the Lamanites failed, he had to come up with an idea to alter the record to meet the changing needs due to his failed prophecy. Smith was guilty of doing the same damn thing he accused others of doing -- he altered the words! He's a hypocrite and a Goddamn liar!

Behold I say unto you that thou that you shalt go unto the Lamanites & Preach my Gospel unto them & cause my Church to be established among them & thou you shalt have Revelations but write them not by the way of Commandment & Now Behold I say unto you that it is not Revealed & no man knoweth where the City shall be built But it shall be given hereafter Behold I say unto you that it shall be <on the borders by> among the Lamanites

Thus, Joseph Smith was a serpent with a forked tongue.



f-u

[Shulem]

Dan,

Don't you think it's a bit disingenuous how the Church ever since its conception has neglected and ultimately failed to get a revelation to mark the spot of ground in which Jesus appeared in Bountiful while visiting the Nephites some 2000 years ago? The billion dollar corporation has more than enough money to build a monument to honor their resurrected Jesus's appearance among the ancient inhabitants of this continent. Why can't dumbass Nelson get a revelation through his lighted pen to go and set up a pillar or a monument or better yet, a visitors center?

The stoopid Mormons simply continue to dupe their followers and the leaders continue to brainwash themselves in thinking they know things they really don't know. How silly!

I'll probably acquire your new book in another year or so and see what you got. I want to know how well I think you got into the mind of Joseph Smith -- from my point of view.

[Shulem]

Does anyone know the apologetic explanation for Dan Vogel's message given in the short: LOCATION OF ZION CHANGED?

QUESTION for the apologists:

Who changed their mind about where the City of New Jerusalem would be built?

[ ] God
[ ] Joseph Smith

[Shulem]

Behold I say unto you that thou shalt go unto the Lamanites & Preach my Gospel unto them & cause my Church to be established among them & thou shalt have Revelations but write them not by the way of Commandment & Now Behold I say unto you that it is not Revealed & no man knoweth where the City shall be built But it shall be given hereafter Behold I say unto you that it shall be among the Lamanites

The revelation of "30 Commandment" (JSP Note: The index of Revelation Book 1 indicates that this revelation should actually be dated September 1830. This scribal error suggests that John Whitmer copied the text into Revelation Book 1 in 1831.) Revelation given from Jesus to Smith and implies that not even Smith knew the exact location of *where* the New Jerusalem would be built in the last days. We are informed that Jesus is speaking to Joseph and getting him ready to build the city of Zion preparatory to the second coming. Key points from the revelation of this commandment are highlighted here:

• But Behold Verily Verily I say unto you no one shall be appointed to Receive commandments & Revelations in this Church excepting my Servent Joseph for he Receiveth them even as Moses

• I have given him the keys of the mysteries of the Revelations which are sealed until I shall appoint unto him another in his stead & now Behold I say unto you that thou shalt go unto the Lamanites & Preach my Gospel unto them & cause my Church to be established among them

• Now Behold I say unto you that it is not Revealed & no man knoweth where the City shall be built But it shall be given hereafter Behold I say unto you that it shall be among the Lamanites

Note how no man knoweth *where* New Jerusalem will be built, NOT EVEN Joseph Smith! This is a clear admission on Smith's part that he had not yet formulated in his mind and determined the exact location of where the latter day City of Zion would be built. At this point in time, Smith only knew that it would built among the Lamanites. This prophecy was yet to be answered with regard to exact location! Therefore, we can conclude that Smith hadn't yet determined where the exact location of the New Jerusalem prophesied of in the Book of Mormon would be built. When he dictated those prophesies he only knew that there would be a city built sometime during his ministry because the prophecies tell about the city being built to the remnants of the House of Israel through the choice seer of the latter days, Joseph Smith.

[Shulem]

I think it's safe to say that Joseph Smith originally envisioned the so-called New Jerusalem that would be built on the American continent prior to the second coming was to be built in Indian territory among the Lamanites. The revelation given in 1830 was a kind of echo of the former prophecy given in the Book of Mormon. Let's see what it says, shall we?

And the Father hath commanded me that I should give unto you this  land, for your inheritance. And I say unto you, that if the Gentiles do not repent after the blessing which they shall receive, after they have scattered my people—Then shall ye, who are a  remnant of the house of Jacob, go forth among them; and ye shall be in the midst of them who shall be many;

<snip>

And behold, this  people will I establish in this land, unto the fulfilling of the covenant which I made with your father Jacob; and it shall be a  New Jerusalem. And the powers of heaven shall be in the midst of this people; yea, even  I will be in the midst of you.

<snip>

But if they will repent and hearken unto my words, and harden not their hearts, I will  establish my church among them, and they shall come in unto the covenant and be  numbered among this the remnant of Jacob, unto whom I have given this land for their inheritance; And they shall assist my people, the remnant of Jacob, and also as many of the house of Israel as shall come, that they may build a city, which shall be called the New Jerusalem. And then shall they assist my people that they may be gathered in, who are scattered upon all the face of the land, in unto the New Jerusalem.

And that a New Jerusalem should be built up upon this land, unto the remnant of the seed of Joseph, for which things there has been a type.

<snip>

Wherefore, the remnant of the house of Joseph shall be built upon this  land; and it shall be a land of their inheritance; and they shall build up a holy  city unto the Lord, like unto the Jerusalem of old;

The idea of a New Jerusalem was conceived early on in Joseph Smith's contemplations of creating his religious narrative of the so-called restoration of the gospel through him -- a choice seer who would be raised up to gather the House of Israel together and prepare for Christ's return. Obviously, Smith opted to not choose New York or Cumorah. He had something entirely different in mind and it's quite possible he didn't know where to name the place until he actually named it.

I hope others find this interesting. I sure do.

[Nimrod]

It seems early Mormonism did not blend well in the United States at the time. There was a desire--a recurrent theme--to get out of at least the areas organized as states, into areas such as west of the state of Missouri (an area unorganized from 1821-1855), possibly into the Republic of Texas, or into Mexico (present day Utah was Mexican territory when the first pioneers arrived in 1847). As compared to today's high deference by the government towards religions in America, how was the situation in the 1830s and 1840s?

[Res Ipsa]

It seems early Mormonism did not blend well in the United States at the time. There was a desire--a recurrent theme--to get out of at least the areas organized as states, into areas such as west of the state of Missouri (an area unorganized from 1821-1855), possibly into the Republic of Texas, or into Mexico (present day Utah was Mexican territory when the first pioneers arrived in 1847). As compared to today's high deference by the government towards religions in America, how was the situation in the 1830s and 1840s?

During that time, the bill of rights in the U.S. Constitution did not apply to the states. I'm not sure there were many, if any, decisions by the U.S, Supreme Court on religion in that time period. You'd have to look state by state.

ETA: This article, written by a Law Professor at UNLV, looks like a pretty good overview. https://www.law.uh.edu/faculty/lgriffin ... Courts.pdf

[Moksha]

Mormonism Live will be on in about 20 minutes:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JuxXA6Jia6M