Any possible instantaneous state of the universe can actually be made to happen, at any desired time, by whomever sets the initial conditions of the universe. Just follow the deterministic laws of nature backwards to see what cause you'd need to produce that effect at the target time, and dial in that cause at the start. So the kind of God that actually made and controls reality could do all kinds of stuff even without breaking any natural laws.
Presumably that kind of true creator God could also just cheat whenever they wanted, and rejigger natural laws on the fly. God trumps physics, the way the sole owner of a privately held company gets to change company policy whenever they want. That's never been at all hard to see. It's in big letters on the front of the tin, when you look in the God aisle at the theism section.
It has always seemed like inconsistent thinking to me, though, for Mormons to proclaim that their God did not create the universe, but rather is himself subject to all of its laws, while nonetheless expecting their infinitely lesser deity to get full respect as a theistic God. As far as I can tell, Mormonism never even seems to mention any truly transcendent being, so although I wouldn't want to offend Mormons by putting it this way, I can't help thinking that it would be technically accurate to say that Mormonism is an atheistic religion that worships some superhuman aliens.
My thoughts on this topic are quite similar to yours. Classical theism puts God outside of creation and makes him a complete master of it. He is an uncreated creator. Mormonism seems to make God a creature who is bound by natural laws. Now perhaps he can break these natural laws but I think questions about how this fellow creature does the things he does is fair. I've made the same Star Trek "why does god need a starship" joke that some others here are making. How does the LDS God, with his physical body that is exactly like ours, get around the cosmos?
I think Mormonism is clear that humans do not become divine by the natural powers of this world or what is within them but receive exaltation from God. Some LDS teaching indicates that this is a repeating pattern going back and back. However that my be thought of there is posited a divine power and divine being which is outside, above and in control of his natural world described by physics.
God is understood to be an exalted person not a physical body exactly like ours. Well yes arms legs hand feet eyes nose mouth etc.
I think Mormonism is clear that humans do not become divine by the natural powers of this world or what is within them but receive exaltation from God. Some LDS teaching indicates that this is a repeating pattern going back and back. However that my be thought of there is posited a divine power and divine being which is outside, above and in control of his natural world described by physics.
God is understood to be an exalted person not a physical body exactly like ours. Well yes arms legs hand feet eyes nose mouth etc.
I think the issue within Mormonism is a lack of creator creature distinction. In classical theism God gives everything its being and all things derive existence from God. Within Mormonism God is ultimately just a creature. Attributes exist outside of himself and had to be acquired rather than attributes being his very nature. So it seems that no matter how much progression occurs, everyone would still be bound, at the very least, by the eternal law of progression. Now, I am not sure how a creature could become so powerful it is no longer bound by any physical law since that would, in my mind at least, require it to begin to exist outside of time and space.
I think Mormonism is clear that humans do not become divine by the natural powers of this world or what is within them but receive exaltation from God. Some LDS teaching indicates that this is a repeating pattern going back and back. However that my be thought of there is posited a divine power and divine being which is outside, above and in control of his natural world described by physics.
God is understood to be an exalted person not a physical body exactly like ours. Well yes arms legs hand feet eyes nose mouth etc.
I think the issue within Mormonism is a lack of creator creature distinction. In classical theism God gives everything its being and all things derive existence from God. Within Mormonism God is ultimately just a creature. Attributes exist outside of himself and had to be acquired rather than attributes being his very nature. So it seems that no matter how much progression occurs, everyone would still be bound, at the very least, by the eternal law of progression. Now, I am not sure how a creature could become so powerful it is no longer bound by any physical law since that would, in my mind at least, require it to begin to exist outside of time and space.
Tapir Rodeo, I think your point and question has validity. However the whole relationship between idea of creator God and creation has some difficulties I think in any system. I do not think LDS has any really developed and unified system. It has ideas which might seem to go in different directions.
Some past ago. on the internet I had some exchanges with Daniel Peterson on this subject. I asked him where the power to become God comes from. "From God" was the response. That has some reason to it. I think some Mormons see or assume an eternal God above the God we relate too. I gather some thought appears to see an eternal divine realm with power over the natural realm and perhaps not personal but persons are absorbed into it. I have reservations about whether that actually makes sense. A believer may easily ascribe the problem to areas beyond our knowledge and ability to understand.
I think the issue within Mormonism is a lack of creator creature distinction. In classical theism God gives everything its being and all things derive existence from God. Within Mormonism God is ultimately just a creature. Attributes exist outside of himself and had to be acquired rather than attributes being his very nature. So it seems that no matter how much progression occurs, everyone would still be bound, at the very least, by the eternal law of progression. Now, I am not sure how a creature could become so powerful it is no longer bound by any physical law since that would, in my mind at least, require it to begin to exist outside of time and space.
Tapir Rodeo, I think your point and question has validity. However the whole relationship between idea of creator God and creation has some difficulties I think in any system. I do not think LDS has any really developed and unified system. It has ideas which might seem to go in different directions.
Some past ago. on the internet I had some exchanges with Daniel Peterson on this subject. I asked him where the power to become God comes from. "From God" was the response. That has some reason to it. I think some Mormons see or assume an eternal God above the God we relate too. I gather some thought appears to see an eternal divine realm with power over the natural realm and perhaps not personal but persons are absorbed into it. I have reservations about whether that actually makes sense. A believer may easily ascribe the problem to areas beyond our knowledge and ability to understand.
I do agree that any "theory" (for lack of a better word) of God is going to have some issues.
I think that a major issue for me is the lack of dogmatic or systematic theology in Mormonism. So you end up with varied explanations for how God becomes God and how he does what he does. All of them with significant difficulty. If God gets the power to progress from God does that imply regression to a more powerful God? If he gets it from himself does that imply a relationship with enternal matter in such a way that the law of eternal progression is woven into the fabric of existence so completely its like a law of nature? I suppose Mormons will never have a solid answer.
Since Mormon God is a god of flesh and bone with a body, who needs food, water, and oxygen to live, how does he travel between Kolob and Earth?
This is some real Scientology space opera stuff, no? Do Mormons just not think about this?
Joseph Smith himself thought about this almost from the beginning. See the Pearl of Great Price: Joseph Smith History, verse 43 (emphasis mine):
After this communication, I saw the light in the room begin to gather immediately around the person of him who had been speaking to me, and it continued to do so until the room was again left dark, except just around him; when, instantly I saw, as it were, a conduit open right up into heaven, and he ascended till he entirely disappeared, and the room was left as it had been before this heavenly light had made its appearance.
So, he described wormhole technology before there was a word for it.
"It’s ironic that the Church that people claim to be true, puts so much effort into hiding truths."
--I Have Questions, 01-25-2024
Proxima Centauri is 4.5 light years away, meaning at the speed of light it takes 4.5 years to travel there. Kolob, the fictional star, is likely much farther away than that.
Since Mormon God is a god of flesh and bone with a body, who needs food, water, and oxygen to live, how does he travel between Kolob and Earth?
This is some real Scientology space opera stuff, no? Do Mormons just not think about this?
What was emohim’s sustenance while the earth was still without form void?
Edited to correct typo
Last edited by msnobody on Mon Aug 28, 2023 6:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.
The LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for his treasured possession... The LORD set his love on you and chose you... The LORD has brought you out with a mighty hand and redeemed you from the house of slavery. Deut. 7
Proxima Centauri is 4.5 light years away, meaning at the speed of light it takes 4.5 years to travel there. Kolob, the fictional star, is likely much farther away than that.
Since Mormon God is a god of flesh and bone with a body, who needs food, water, and oxygen to live, how does he travel between Kolob and Earth?
This is some real Scientology space opera stuff, no? Do Mormons just not think about this?
What was emohim’s substinence while the earth was still without form void?
Since Mormon God is a god of flesh and bone with a body, who needs food, water, and oxygen to live, how does he travel between Kolob and Earth?
This is some real Scientology space opera stuff, no? Do Mormons just not think about this?
Joseph Smith himself thought about this almost from the beginning. See the Pearl of Great Price: Joseph Smith History, verse 43 (emphasis mine):
After this communication, I saw the light in the room begin to gather immediately around the person of him who had been speaking to me, and it continued to do so until the room was again left dark, except just around him; when, instantly I saw, as it were, a conduit open right up into heaven, and he ascended till he entirely disappeared, and the room was left as it had been before this heavenly light had made its appearance.
So, he described wormhole technology before there was a word for it.
Joseph Smith wrote:
I saw the light in the room begin to gather immediately around the person of him who had been speaking to me, and it continued to do so until the room was again left dark, except just around him ... .
Wormholes might be needed just to explain this behaviour of light.
So, he described wormhole technology before there was a word for it.
A Joseph Smith bullseye?
No, because wormhole technology is still only theoretical. So, it's more like "Joseph Smith was 'right' in the same way a broken clock is right twice a day."
My only point was that, to answer your question in your opening post, Mormons do think about things like this.
"It’s ironic that the Church that people claim to be true, puts so much effort into hiding truths."
--I Have Questions, 01-25-2024
