Did your exit bring you sadness or happiness?

[I Have Questions]

Neither. Relief from the drudgery and nonsense was the immediate benefit.

For me also.

But then you have to make your way in a world that you don't understand and that can bring in new sets of problems that you could have been sheltered from by staying in the harness.

True. But in doing so I was able to behave authentically. Not least in being honest with myself about what I truly felt and thought.

[Kishkumen]

Then people in western countries will become about as wicked as people currently are in (e.g.) Japan?

Based on my experience, I say "bring it on" ...

I love Japan, but holding out a nation with a collapsing population as a positive example seems an odd tack.

[Chap]

Then people in western countries will become about as wicked as people currently are in (e.g.) Japan?

Based on my experience, I say "bring it on" ...

I love Japan, but holding out a nation with a collapsing population as a positive example seems an odd tack.

What has reproducing the national population got to do with whether or not a non-Christian group is on the whole composed of decent people?

[Kishkumen]

What has reproducing the national population got to do with whether or not a non-Christian group is on the whole composed of decent people?

It is composed of generally decent people, but it still is an odd comparandum. As decent as they are, spiritual malaise is one of the first things to spring to mind when one thinks of Japan. Sad to see so many bizarre and troubling things going on there, but it is hard to deny the very real problems that can’t simply be dismissed as a birth rate issue.

[Kishkumen]

Neither. Relief from the drudgery and nonsense was the immediate benefit. But then you have to make your way in a world that you don't understand and that can bring in new sets of problems that you could have been sheltered from by staying in the harness.

Interesting take, Dean Robbers. Relief from drudgery and nonsense was what I felt at the time for sure. Now I see that drudgery and nonsense is a ubiquitous problem. You can’t escape it. Leaving the LDS Church was only temporary relief from certain brands of drudgery and nonsense.

[Chap]

What has reproducing the national population got to do with whether or not a non-Christian group is on the whole composed of decent people?

It is composed of generally decent people, but it still is an odd comparandum. As decent as they are, spiritual malaise is one of the first things to spring to mind when one thinks of Japan. Sad to see so many bizarre and troubling things going on there, but it is hard to deny the very real problems that can’t simply be dismissed as a birth rate issue.

I picked Japan as a place in which this question:

But do you know where the Japanese acquired their morality? Was it the same place the Assyrians got theirs? Or the Nazis? I mean, things can swing from one direction or another, and the bulk of humans are highly persuadible by whoever is in change. What morality are you in favor of if you had your choice? But more importantly, how would your enforce it? Or just anarchy? (That's a morality too, but it never lasts long.)

can be answered by saying that Japan (like many other countries) contains people who are in a considerable degree decent, generous and kind, without having any of the 'sources of 'morality' mentioned by bill4long, or indeed any with which he is likely to be familiar. My point being that if you do not starve, terrorise or oppress people or those they hold dear, most people in the world will behave pretty decently without reference to any system of religious belief.

Of course, Japan is no more immune than any other society to having difficult problems that can impact the lives of its inhabitants. But that was not my point.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

Well. At first I was like this video clip:

https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comme ... s_classic/

Except that I wasn't a 'typical happy Mormon'. I was like many, many Mormons and ex-Mormons where the 'church' weighed heavily on me because I felt otherized constantly, felt the need to make sense of nonsense constantly, and felt like Mormonism offered no satisfactory answers to deeper philosophical and scientific questions. Mormonism was a sort of poor facsimile to living - art, music, and just... I dunno, this 'endure to the end' thing was more Boxer serving Squealer than flourishing because virtually everything life had to offer was a distraction from existing within a depressing narrow lane.

So. Did my Exit bring me sadness or happiness? Well. Mostly sadness, because I was either predisposed toward fussiness and Mormonism programed me to be at odds with the world in so many ways that, upon being free to be free, or perhaps I don't know if freedom itself is a guarantee of some sort to be happy? The Buddha developed a philosophy about our existential milieu, and perhaps that's why I gravitated toward it after Mormonism - but I'm not a Buddhist because, naturally, I learned to question all dogma thanks to my Exit. A pastiche of approaches to living is providing me the opportunity to balance out, but happiness is so fleeting that I prefer to recognize Suffering is our baseline and then go from there.

So, I guess my answer is sadness, but with a few caveats. Ultimately I'm getting closer to longer bouts of calmness, which is where I prefer to be.

- Doc

[Kishkumen]

can be answered by saying that Japan (like many other countries) contains people who are in a considerable degree decent, generous and kind, without having any of the 'sources of 'morality' mentioned by bill4long, or indeed any with which he is likely to be familiar. My point being that if you do not starve, terrorise or oppress people or those they hold dear, most people in the world will behave pretty decently without reference to any system of religious belief.

Of course, Japan is no more immune than any other society to having difficult problems that can impact the lives of its inhabitants. But that was not my point.

Yes, and with the forward-looking vision of the issue at hand, I thought Japan was an odd place to aspire to be like. One that is deeply xenophobic and highly racist, has a precipitously declining population, as well as a malaise that drives people to become shut-ins or take their own lives.

So, OK. If that is your idea of a nice future, I guess I can't argue with you. It's just not my idea of a nice future.

[Gadianton]

Interesting take, Dean Robbers. Relief from drudgery and nonsense was what I felt at the time for sure. Now I see that drudgery and nonsense is a ubiquitous problem. You can’t escape it. Leaving the LDS Church was only temporary relief from certain brands of drudgery and nonsense.

I'm saddened to learn of our differing experiences here. As I pointed out in my post, there were new challenges that I've experienced that I might have avoided by remaining in the fold. However, drudgery and nonsense is not one of them, that problem is solved. Sure, there are difficult patches with my career or things like home and yard maintenance, but it never rises to the level of the burden of church services and duties. And even if they did, then even better to have the additional time off on Sunday.

drudgery fatalism would be a very bad thing and I really hope you were exaggerating.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

Neither. Relief from the drudgery and nonsense was the immediate benefit. But then you have to make your way in a world that you don't understand and that can bring in new sets of problems that you could have been sheltered from by staying in the harness.

Interesting take, Dean Robbers. Relief from drudgery and nonsense was what I felt at the time for sure. Now I see that drudgery and nonsense is a ubiquitous problem. You can’t escape it. Leaving the LDS Church was only temporary relief from certain brands of drudgery and nonsense.

When is the last time you've done something, on purpose, that has scared the ever living crap out of you?