Atheist attacks Christopher Hitchens

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
User avatar
Kishkumen
God
Posts: 7909
Joined: Tue Oct 27, 2020 2:37 pm
Location: Cassius University
Contact:

Re: Atheist attacks Christopher Hitchens

Post by Kishkumen »

Rivendale wrote:
Tue Dec 12, 2023 6:45 pm
I agree that argumentative appraches claiming there is no god ( Aron Ra an exmormon comes to mind) has adopted an ideology similiar to a religion. However atheism (as I understand it)is just the rejection of the evidence presented. It dosen't make the positive claim. I am sure the phrase the "burden of proof resides with the positive claim" has been said here often. For me as I age it seems redundant. But it can make for interesting discussions.
Not believing in a god is not necessarily the same thing as not being religious. Advocating for an ideology with the claim that the ideology in question will lead to positive transformation of society, etc., smacks of religiosity to me. I also don’t think that there is a single definition of atheism that fits everyone. “Burden of proof resides with a positive claim” is a methodological ground rule, not an ideology.

Those are my thoughts as I read your words.
User avatar
Kishkumen
God
Posts: 7909
Joined: Tue Oct 27, 2020 2:37 pm
Location: Cassius University
Contact:

Re: Atheist attacks Christopher Hitchens

Post by Kishkumen »

drumdude wrote:
Tue Dec 12, 2023 7:01 pm
There’s a lot of subtle nuance in the views which commonly gets lost. Especially when both sides are trying to win an argument. In my opinion, it’s best described as a multidimensional belief which includes one’s belief in the probability of God’s existence, one’s belief in what constitutes evidence for or against, and one’s level of interest in the question.

All of those are difficult to capture in a single adjective.
Thanks for that perspective, drumdude.
drumdude
God
Posts: 6418
Joined: Thu Oct 29, 2020 5:29 am

Re: Atheist attacks Christopher Hitchens

Post by drumdude »

Kishkumen wrote:
Tue Dec 12, 2023 9:19 pm
drumdude wrote:
Tue Dec 12, 2023 7:01 pm
There’s a lot of subtle nuance in the views which commonly gets lost. Especially when both sides are trying to win an argument. In my opinion, it’s best described as a multidimensional belief which includes one’s belief in the probability of God’s existence, one’s belief in what constitutes evidence for or against, and one’s level of interest in the question.

All of those are difficult to capture in a single adjective.
Thanks for that perspective, drumdude.
It’s definitely a pet peeve of mine when anyone claims atheists are dogmatic and only agnostics or apathetics are truly the ones with no skin in the game. But I understand where it comes from.

The dogmatic atheists in my experience are the odd ones out. The anti-theist atheists like Madalyn Murray OHare who actively hate religion left a bad taste for the atheist label in many people’s mouth.
Flemming
Valiant A
Posts: 174
Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2023 2:02 am

Re: Atheist attacks Christopher Hitchens

Post by Flemming »

drumdude wrote:…DCP…
He’s just some 80 year old guy who has a couple of blogs.
drumdude
God
Posts: 6418
Joined: Thu Oct 29, 2020 5:29 am

Re: Atheist attacks Christopher Hitchens

Post by drumdude »

Flemming wrote:
Wed Dec 13, 2023 12:42 am
drumdude wrote:…DCP…
He’s just some 80 year old guy who has a couple of blogs.
I’m only aware of one, does he have a food blog too?

Sic et Non is the only one I’m interested in because it’s the only place I see a quasi-official church apologist actually engage with critics and criticism of the LDS church and its leaders on a regular basis.
Flemming
Valiant A
Posts: 174
Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2023 2:02 am

Re: Atheist attacks Christopher Hitchens

Post by Flemming »

drumdude wrote:
Wed Dec 13, 2023 2:39 am
Flemming wrote:
Wed Dec 13, 2023 12:42 am
He’s just some 80 year old guy who has a couple of blogs.
I’m only aware of one, does he have a food blog too?

Sic et Non is the only one I’m interested in because it’s the only place I see a quasi-official church apologist actually engage with critics and criticism of the LDS church and its leaders on a regular basis.
Interpreter is the second.
User avatar
Gadianton
God
Posts: 4716
Joined: Sun Oct 25, 2020 11:56 pm
Location: Elsewhere

Re: Atheist attacks Christopher Hitchens

Post by Gadianton »

Interpreter is the second.
lol. that was pretty clever, Flem. Sometimes you surprise me.
Social distancing has likely already begun to flatten the curve...Continue to research good antivirals and vaccine candidates. Make everyone wear masks. -- J.D. Vance
User avatar
Physics Guy
God
Posts: 1765
Joined: Tue Oct 27, 2020 7:40 am
Location: on the battlefield of life

Re: Atheist attacks Christopher Hitchens

Post by Physics Guy »

Since the word "agnostic" exists, and maybe even "apatheist" as well, it has always seemed to me as though "atheist" shouldn't just mean the same thing, but ought to imply a stronger conviction about the non-existence of any form of God—not necessarily a certainty, but enough more than mere absence of conviction about any particular concept of God to be worth using a different word from "agnostic".

People can define their own labels, and anyway language changes. In the past generation or so the "atheist" label does seem to have stretched, in popular usage, to cover what I think would have been called agnosticism in previous decades. That kind of language drift usually isn't just random, though, and in this case I suspect a bit of having-it-both-ways.

"Yeah, baby, I'm an actual storm trooper!"
"No, see, that whole thing about being mindless clone slaves of the Sith, that's a big misconception. We're just guys in white plastic suits."
I was a teenager before it was cool.
User avatar
malkie
God
Posts: 1582
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 2:41 pm

Re: Atheist attacks Christopher Hitchens

Post by malkie »

A while ago I read of someone who referred to themselves as an atheistic agnostic - meaning that they admitted their ignorance of possible gods, or evidence of such, but at the same time were almost certain that none existed.

I'm good with that idea.
You can help Ukraine by talking for an hour a week!! PM me, or check www.enginprogram.org for details.
Слава Україні!, 𝑺𝒍𝒂𝒗𝒂 𝑼𝒌𝒓𝒂𝒊𝒏𝒊!
User avatar
Gadianton
God
Posts: 4716
Joined: Sun Oct 25, 2020 11:56 pm
Location: Elsewhere

Re: Atheist attacks Christopher Hitchens

Post by Gadianton »

Physics Guy wrote:People can define their own labels, and anyway language changes. In the past generation or so the "atheist" label does seem to have stretched, in popular usage, to cover what I think would have been called agnosticism in previous decades
I think so also. Context also matters, it used to be atheists were philosophy types, now they are more often science types who think philosophy is stupid. In bygone years, if you're thinking about the deductive problem of evil, or topics of logical positivism where the word "God" is a meaningless term, then "atheism" makes a great deal of sense. If your backdrop is science, and the problem of induction is your starting point, then agnosticism makes more sense, even if you don't believe in God, start out with a Bayesian 50/50 and say, "hey, I don't have evidence one way or another, convince me" and then fail to be easily convinced.
Social distancing has likely already begun to flatten the curve...Continue to research good antivirals and vaccine candidates. Make everyone wear masks. -- J.D. Vance
Post Reply