Why do you think MG did not watch? He made a few thoughtful but not very new observations. Was there something he is clearly missing?
He said watched mostly, perhaps he and I missed the same important part. I got bored before the end. It did not appear I would miss anything except another revolution about the circle.
"Those that say that truth is truth...if it's been spoken by prophets, period, ad infinitum...and those that say truth is truth in the moment and time in which it is given but that it is malleable. Some of the Brethren have implied that this is the case. Which 'camp' will win the day is an open question at this point, I think.
I would say truth is what has occured, is occuring now and will occur in in future. If you want to know where one might have stood to see a total solar eclipse on a certain date five years ago, then a person can find that information. If one wanted to find the path a total solar eclpise would follow today if that were to occur then one could find that information. If one want to know the date and path of the next full solar eclipse to occur in the USA one can find that information.
Truth doesn't come from dogma. Truth doesn't come from LDS church policy. Truth doesn't come from LDS church culture. Truth comes from testing a thought, reviweing the results and then allowing someone halfway around the world to do the same type of testing and compare the results. Truth wants to be falsified. It welcomes it. And after all the tests are done, it stills stands tall.
This reminds me I need to re-read a book written by Jae R. Ballif who was a counselor in the MTC presidency when I was there in the fall of 1980 who wrote a book called "In Search of Truth and Love." IIRR he has a PH.d in Astro Physics from UCLA. I read it decades ago.
Three things cannot be long hidden: the sun, the moon, and the truth.
"Those that say that truth is truth...if it's been spoken by prophets, period, ad infinitum...and those that say truth is truth in the moment and time in which it is given but that it is malleable. Some of the Brethren have implied that this is the case. Which 'camp' will win the day is an open question at this point, I think.
I would say truth is what has occured, is occuring now and will occur in in future. If you want to know where one might have stood to see a total solar eclipse on a certain date five years ago, then a person can find that information. If one wanted to find the path a total solar eclpise would follow today if that were to occur then one could find that information. If one want to know the date and path of the next full solar eclipse to occur in the USA one can find that information.
Truth doesn't come from dogma. Truth doesn't come from LDS church policy. Truth doesn't come from LDS church culture. Truth comes from testing a thought, reviweing the results and then allowing someone halfway around the world to do the same type of testing and compare the results. Truth wants to be falsified. It welcomes it. And after all the tests are done, it stills stands tall.
This reminds me I need to re-read a book written by Jae R. Ballif who was a counselor in the MTC presidency when I was there in the fall of 1980 who wrote a book called "In Search of Truth and Love." IIRR he has a PH.d in Astro Physics from UCLA. I read it decades ago.
I think there are certain truths, as you say, that are systematic and follow certain laws and algorithms and can pretty much be seen as 'solid truth'. Even in respect to those things that we are finding out are not quite as solid as we might have at once thought. Quantum theory and all that. I think, however, that in the world of 'spiritual truth' the core truths remain systematically 'true' but are also somewhat malleable depending on time and place in earth's history and the development and evolution societies, cultures, and individual human beings.
Things were a lot different in the time of Jesus, for example, than they are now. Some folks recently on this board have been saying that since the modern church of Jesus Christ is not like the early communities at the micro level that somehow that modern church can't be 'true'. I think one needs to look more at the macro level when looking over that long span of time and space.
Regards,
MG
Last edited by MG 2.0 on Wed Sep 03, 2025 9:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Jim speaks the truth. Jacob Hansen does more harm than good. He a modern day ark-steadier. As much as the brethren hate outspoken ex-Mormons, I think they may hate dealing with outspoken ark-steadiers more.
That's an interesting comment, Dr. Moore. If Jim is speaking the truth then it is true that whenever the Brethren speak is as if "I the Lord had spoken" and that whatever is spoken at any given time through any given prophet is the word of the Lord, and the mind of the Lord, unto salvation. If this is the Truth, then it means that President Nelson theoretically could contradict and or supersede what President Nelson has said in the past in regards to marriage being between a man and a woman. This seems to be what Jim is saying essentially.
Jacob is pointing out that this is where things get dicey.
The conversation between Jacob Hansen and Jim Bennett makes it very clear that there is potentially a schism within the church among those that know what's going on in regard to this topic. Those that say that truth is truth...if it's been spoken by prophets, period, ad infinitum...and those that say truth is truth in the moment and time in which it is given but that it is malleable. Some of the Brethren have implied that this is the case. Which 'camp' will win the day is an open question at this point, I think.
One thing for sure, there will be those that will be aligned with the Jim Bennetts and those that will be aligned with Jacob Hansen. I watched the whole discussion, pretty much. Those two do not seem able to come to a common ground. It does go to show that even within a church that claims to have absolute truth, there are conversations going on as to what that 'absolute truth' is. I think of how the Godbeites protested the religious authority of Church leaders by claiming new revelations received that ran in opposition to the mainline church in regard to temporal affairs. Those that opposed the manifesto. Those that ran in opposition to the church's stance on blacks and the priesthood. Kate Kelley. Sam Young. Lyman Wight. Etc.
Interesting to watch. I think when it comes down to it at the end of the day it is those that follow the prophet, in the moment of time they find themselves in, that will find themselves in the mainstream of the church. It's interesting that both Jacob and Jim both strongly believe in the correctness of their positions. I do see, however, why you might be in support of Jim Bennett. I basically come out somewhere in the middle, I think. That is understandably a somewhat difficult position to take because it is seemingly between a rock and hard place and opens up a Pandora's box of questions.
I think I might disagree that Jacob Hansen is an "ark steadier". What did he have to say in this conversation that makes you think that?
Everybody Wang Chung,
Why do you think MG did not watch? He made a few thoughtful but not very new observations. Was there something he is clearly missing?
He said watched mostly, perhaps he and I missed the same important part. I got bored before the end. It did not appear I would miss anything except another revolution about the circle.
I would say truth is what has occured, is occuring now and will occur in in future. If you want to know where one might have stood to see a total solar eclipse on a certain date five years ago, then a person can find that information. If one wanted to find the path a total solar eclpise would follow today if that were to occur then one could find that information. If one want to know the date and path of the next full solar eclipse to occur in the USA one can find that information.
Truth doesn't come from dogma. Truth doesn't come from LDS church policy. Truth doesn't come from LDS church culture. Truth comes from testing a thought, reviweing the results and then allowing someone halfway around the world to do the same type of testing and compare the results. Truth wants to be falsified. It welcomes it. And after all the tests are done, it stills stands tall.
This reminds me I need to re-read a book written by Jae R. Ballif who was a counselor in the MTC presidency when I was there in the fall of 1980 who wrote a book called "In Search of Truth and Love." IIRR he has a PH.d in Astro Physics from UCLA. I read it decades ago.
I think there are certain truths, as you say, that are systematic and follow certain laws and algorithms and can pretty much be seen as 'solid truth'. Even in respect to those things that we are finding out are not quite as solid as we might have at once thought. Quantum theory and all that. I think, however, that in the world of 'spiritual truth' the core truths remain systematically 'true' but are also somewhat malleable depending on time and place in earth's history and the development and evolution societies, cultures, and individual human beings.
Things were a lot different in the time of Jesus, for example, than they are now. Some folks recently on this board have been saying that since the modern church of Jesus Christ is not like the early communities at the micro level that somehow that modern church can't be 'true'. I think one needs to look more at the macro level when looking over that long span of time and space.
Regards,
MG
It's important to follow first century Christian principles. Per the writer of the Gospel of Luke. Jesus said "Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again".
I always like this verse (Luke 6:38) because it speaks directly to honesty and integrity. The way I understand it is when a person buys grain, an honest seller will fill the bag, push the grain down to push out all the air pockets, then put more grain in and then add more so it's overflowing. In the long run the seller actually gets more back due to God's blessings. A person today can apply that to LDS church business. It's about being honest and open about your business dealings, more than is expected. Do you see anyway the LDS church can be more honest and open today than it has in the past? Can you give examples or do you need others to give them for you?
Three things cannot be long hidden: the sun, the moon, and the truth.
I think there are certain truths, as you say, that are systematic and follow certain laws and algorithms and can pretty much be seen as 'solid truth'. Even in respect to those things that we are finding out are not quite as solid as we might have at once thought. Quantum theory and all that. I think, however, that in the world of 'spiritual truth' the core truths remain systematically 'true' but are also somewhat malleable depending on time and place in earth's history and the development and evolution societies, cultures, and individual human beings.
Things were a lot different in the time of Jesus, for example, than they are now. Some folks recently on this board have been saying that since the modern church of Jesus Christ is not like the early communities at the micro level that somehow that modern church can't be 'true'. I think one needs to look more at the macro level when looking over that long span of time and space.
Regards,
MG
It's important to follow first century Christian principles. Per the writer of the Gospel of Luke. Jesus said "Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again".
I always like this verse (Luke 6:38) because it speaks directly to honesty and integrity. The way I understand it is when a person buys grain, an honest seller will fill the bag, push the grain down to push out all the air pockets, then put more grain in and then add more so it's overflowing. In the long run the seller actually gets more back due to God's blessings. A person today can apply that to LDS church business. It's about being honest and open about your business dealings, more than is expected. Do you see anyway the LDS church can be more honest and open today than it has in the past? Can you give examples or do you need others to give them for you?
Thank God for the principle of repentance. I would hope that those that were involved in the recent financial transactions that were found to be 'in the wrong' by the investigators will, now that they have made adjustments and had their hands slapped, will live and learn.
Thank you for your response, MG 2.0. Sorry for that last sentence as it was a little too aggressive. Do you know of any steps the LDS church has made to correct the issue? Will the church apologize, state a course of action to correct the error so it’s not repeated such as bringing in an outside accounting firm to review the books and then give an estimate of the taxes that need to be paid?
Three things cannot be long hidden: the sun, the moon, and the truth.
Thank you for your response, MG 2.0. Sorry for that last sentence as it was a little too aggressive. Do you know of any steps the LDS church has made to correct the issue? Will the church apologize, state a course of action to correct the error so it’s not repeated such as bringing in an outside accounting firm to review the books and then give an estimate of the taxes that need to be paid?
The church's financial arm has made changes reporting methods and now files aggregated reports in line with federal requirements. The quarterly reports now meet all SEC standards, and over a dozen have been filed since the SEC settlement. That settlement also prohibits the Church from denying wrongdoing and demands corrections if post-settlement statements are misleading. Ensign Peak Advisors, must file Form 13F quarterly, listing all major stock holdings; these reports are accessible on the SEC’s official website.
It seems as though there will be a significant degree improvement in financial transparency. The church has made the necessary course corrections. It seems as though the conversation ought to be over at this point. What I said about repentance earlier is something that I think we can all relate to. I think we can also be more cognizant of the associated principle of forgiveness.
The church's financial arm has made changes reporting methods and now files aggregated reports in line with federal requirements. The quarterly reports now meet all SEC standards, and over a dozen have been filed since the SEC settlement. That settlement also prohibits the Church from denying wrongdoing and demands corrections if post-settlement statements are misleading. Ensign Peak Advisors, must file Form 13F quarterly, listing all major stock holdings; these reports are accessible on the SEC’s official website.
Fibber, where did you get this information?
"I'm on paid sabbatical from BYU in exchange for my promise to use this time to finish two books."
