DCP throws the prophet Kimball under the bus

[Marcus]

Those like MG and DCP, Midge, and most of the apologists were unlikely ever Chapel Mormons. It's possible, but unlikely. I do think, contrary to what many here would want to believe, that Kiwi57 is legitimately a Chapel Mormon wearing Internet Mormon clothing. Even given his bombastic behavior I'd have a much easier time getting along with him than the others because he knows the gospel. It's something we Chapel Mormons can sense in others.

It's not just throwing the prophet Kimball under the bus. My dad was an ardent member missionary, and do you know how many descendants of the Lamanites he revealed their heritage to? And suddenly, that's "inconvenient"? Oh because science. Dan doesn't even believe in science!

My parents participated in the Lamanite Generation -- what would you call it? A play or a pageant or a production or what? I have no idea. I was very young. I don't even recall what my parents did there. One of the most distinct memories of my life occurred there, which I don't wish to discuss openly, and maybe because of that I remember the whole thing much better. I remember being in the seats watching rehearsals over and over again. So I knew the main song. In fact, even now I can anticipate the lyrics and point to spots that differ between the recorded version and the live production.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZ8CAYjAzow

This really happened. It wasn't just something Kimball believed, it was hugely ingrained in Mormon culture. To tell me that this was some non-material interpretation by a few misguided members is ridiculous. This was fully part of what it meant to be a Chapel Mormon, and anyone who denies it denies that they were ever really Mormon.

Wow, your recounting of your Lamanite Generation experience is fascinating. When I was at the Y a boy I dated was in the Lamanite Generation. At that time, it was a musical theater-type show, similar to the one which I was in. My boyfriend was at BYU on a Lamanite scholarship, If I recall correctly, if you were verifiably at least 1/8 native american, you were considered of Lamanite descent and got tuition exemption, free housing, and a living stipend. I had a full ride at BYU for academic reasons, but the dollar value was minor compared to what BYU gave Lamanites and athletes. A guy from my high school was both, and his was several magnitudes beyond my scholarship cash value. Go BYU sports!

It's my understanding that BYU, some decades back, abruptly renamed the Lamanite Generation group as the 'Living Legends' group. I don't think they give free rides to students they define as "Lamanites" anymore, either.

This really happened. It wasn't just something Kimball believed, it was hugely ingrained in Mormon culture. To tell me that this was some non-material interpretation by a few misguided members is ridiculous. This was fully part of what it meant to be a Chapel Mormon, and anyone who denies it denies that they were ever really Mormon.

I couldn't agree more. Peterson's backpedaling of the Mormon definition of 'Lamanite' is cowardly and dishonest. I can't imagine how devastating that would be to a person wo attended BYU in the 80's on a 'lamanite' scholarship. The way the lds church used them and then discarded them is sickening.

[drumdude]

DCP believes we can’t simply throw away the historical Books of Mormon and Abraham, because we can’t allow the prophet Joseph to have been misled, or to have intentionally deceived the saints.

But in my mind, the success rate of Mormon prophets is abysmal. From polygamy, to Mormons on the moon, to end times predictions, to the priesthood ban, to the Hoffman bombing, to gay marriage, to the children of gay parents, to the “I’m a Mormon” advertising campaign, to the SEC scandal… on and on and on, time after time, Mormon prophets have performed worse than random chance.

It’s clear over the past 200 years Mormon prophets are constantly either being misled by God or intentionally deceiving the saints.

That’s what they’ve become so neutered in their modern day revelations. Russell Nelson said 3 years ago that non-specific “big things are coming.” It’s 3 years later and no one has a clue what he was talking about. However his “revelation” was so vague as to be completely un-falsifiable and forgettable. The perfect Modern Mormon prophesy.

If the church can be wrong about the Native Americans, it can be wrong about the historicity of the Book of Mormon as a whole. It’s inescapable, no matter how many low quality publications apologists produce to try to shore it up. There’s no face left to save, DCP is trying to keep the horses in the barn after the horses have left and are long dead.

[sock puppet]

DCP believes we can’t simply throw away the historical Books of Mormon and Abraham, because we can’t allow the prophet Joseph to have been misled, or to have intentionally deceived the saints.

But in my mind, the success rate of Mormon prophets is abysmal. From polygamy, to Mormons on the moon, to end times predictions, to the priesthood ban, to the Hoffman bombing, to gay marriage, to the children of gay parents, to the “I’m a Mormon” advertising campaign, to the SEC scandal… on and on and on, time after time, Mormon prophets have performed worse than random chance.

It’s clear over the past 200 years Mormon prophets are constantly either being misled by God or intentionally deceiving the saints.

That’s what they’ve become so neutered in their modern day revelations. Russell Nelson said 3 years ago that non-specific “big things are coming.” It’s 3 years later and no one has a clue what he was talking about. However his “revelation” was so vague as to be completely un-falsifiable and forgettable. The perfect Modern Mormon prophesy.

If the church can be wrong about the Native Americans, it can be wrong about the historicity of the Book of Mormon as a whole. It’s inescapable, no matter how many low quality publications apologists produce to try to shore it up. There’s no face left to save, DCP is trying to keep the horses in the barn after the horses have left and are long dead.

That's because the're driven by their biases.

[Tom]

Those like MG and DCP, Midge, and most of the apologists were unlikely ever Chapel Mormons. It's possible, but unlikely. I do think, contrary to what many here would want to believe, that Kiwi57 is legitimately a Chapel Mormon wearing Internet Mormon clothing. Even given his bombastic behavior I'd have a much easier time getting along with him than the others because he knows the gospel. It's something we Chapel Mormons can sense in others.

It's not just throwing the prophet Kimball under the bus. My dad was an ardent member missionary, and do you know how many descendants of the Lamanites he revealed their heritage to? And suddenly, that's "inconvenient"? Oh because science. Dan doesn't even believe in science!

My parents participated in the Lamanite Generation -- what would you call it? A play or a pageant or a production or what? I have no idea. I was very young. I don't even recall what my parents did there. One of the most distinct memories of my life occurred there, which I don't wish to discuss openly, and maybe because of that I remember the whole thing much better. I remember being in the seats watching rehearsals over and over again. So I knew the main song. In fact, even now I can anticipate the lyrics and point to spots that differ between the recorded version and the live production.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZ8CAYjAzow

This really happened. It wasn't just something Kimball believed, it was hugely ingrained in Mormon culture. To tell me that this was some non-material interpretation by a few misguided members is ridiculous. This was fully part of what it meant to be a Chapel Mormon, and anyone who denies it denies that they were ever really Mormon.

When I was a branch president in Scotland, the Lamanite Generation toured the country. I believe that every ward and branch at some point put on the show, including songs and dancing. Our branch was no exception. As far as I know, the active members were all 100% convinced that we were retelling, in musical form, the history of the original inhabitants of the Americas, because that is what we were told we were doing.

Around that time, a BYU troupe called Lamanite Generation was touring the world. I still remember some of the words and music to "Go My Son", and other songs. I may even still have some of the sheet music somewhere.

I may not be following: were the local wards and branches watching the Lamanite Generation perform or were local wards and branches performing their own shows? I have not been able to find a good history of the troupe.

[MG 2.0]

Those like MG and DCP, Midge, and most of the apologists were unlikely ever Chapel Mormons.

I'm a Chapel Mormon. I've been in the chapel almost every week for decades. I'll be there Sunday unless something prohibits my butt being in the pew. I'll be putting in another hour or two doing Financial Clerk stuff before I'm home and with family for the day.

I'm also a person who does like to think a lot and am a natural born questioner/skeptic. The two are not in conflict with each other. There are interesting conversations that happen online, including here...when I ignore the silly ad hominin stuff.

Who would have thought that the ignore function could save a lot of potentially wasted time?! I really should have gone that route sooner rather than trying the TTOC route. I was attempting to see if I could promote a bit more civil conversation. We saw how that went. There are fewer people to converse with now, but that's OK. Less time wasted on those that run around in circles.

Sanity is important!

Regards,
MG

[I Have Questions]

I'm also a person who does like to think a lot and am a natural born questioner/skeptic.

[malkie]

When I was a branch president in Scotland, the Lamanite Generation toured the country. I believe that every ward and branch at some point put on the show, including songs and dancing. Our branch was no exception. As far as I know, the active members were all 100% convinced that we were retelling, in musical form, the history of the original inhabitants of the Americas, because that is what we were told we were doing.

Around that time, a BYU troupe called Lamanite Generation was touring the world. I still remember some of the words and music to "Go My Son", and other songs. I may even still have some of the sheet music somewhere.

I may not be following: were the local wards and branches watching the Lamanite Generation perform or were local wards and branches performing their own shows? I have not been able to find a good history of the troupe.

Ahhh - sorry for the ambiguity. Of course, I knew exactly what I meant!

The Lamanite Generation that toured Scotland was a group of missionaries who were called to work with local wards and branches to help the local members perform their own shows. In effect, we provided a lot of the background stuff, and the missionaries performed parts that were beyond the abilities of most Scottish members - e.g., the Hoop Dance was an essential and spectacular feature that nobody in my branch, least of all me, could have done.

Overlapping in time, the BYU troupe called Lamanite Generation was touring the world. I think that Lamanite Generation/Living Legends is likely a decent abbreviated history of the troupe, but I really don't know a lot about it.

[Gadianton]

My boyfriend was at BYU on a Lamanite scholarship, If I recall correctly, if you were verifiably at least 1/8 native american, you were considered of Lamanite descent and got tuition exemption, free housing, and a living stipend.

They definitely don't believe anyone is 1/8th now. Thanks for verifying how big of deal this is, that they are sweeping under the rug over at SeN.

[Gadianton]

I'm a Chapel Mormon. I've been in the chapel almost every week for decades.

It doesn't seem like you read the post beyond the first sentence. Did you click my link and listen? Was the tune already firmly in your head before you listened? If not, your credibility as a Chapel Mormon is in serious question.

[MG 2.0]

I'm a Chapel Mormon. I've been in the chapel almost every week for decades.

It doesn't seem like you read the post beyond the first sentence. Did you click my link and listen? Was the tune already firmly in your head before you listened? If not, your credibility as a Chapel Mormon is in serious question.

When I was a young man growing up in Southern California we had a Native American that came into our ward as part of the Indian Placement Program. And yes, at that time the teachings of the church were directed at a certain subset of early inhabitants of the American continent as being referred to as Lamanites. As time has gone on and further understanding has come our way through genetic research the church doesn’t have the narrower view that it once had. It has expanded and encompassed a larger group than what was at onetime thought.

Of course, there is more to it and this could be fleshed out. Essentially I think that most “chapel Mormons” would agree that there has been an evolution of thought as to how/where the descendants of Lehi have moved throughout the hemisphere. At BYU there are gets togethers for Native Americans and their friends now and then. I don’t think that the emphasis on “Lamanite” origins is emphasized. At the same time I would think that these students and others have an underlying belief that Father Lehi and his descendants left their mark on those living today.

Cool song, by the way.

Regards,
MG