The dilemma posed by Reggie Anderson’s first vision…

[I Have Questions]

Unfortunately Dan refuses to take Reggie Anderson at his word…

Responding to my quotation, yesterday, from Dr. Reggie Anderson’s account of what he calls a “dream,” one not especially thoughtful critic leaps rather illogically to the suggestion that, if it’s a dream, then “near-death experiences” — to which, as I observed, Dr. Anderson’s account does indeed bear a few strong resemblances — are also mere dreams and not real experiences.

I’m not sure, though, despite Dr. Anderson’s use of the term dream to describe it, that his experience was merely a dream. It might have been, of course. But it might also have been a privileged vision of the world to come. Or it might, itself, have been a kind of out-of-body near-death experience. I don’t know.

Dan is straining at saying Reggie Anderson didn’t have a dream, he had a “dream”. Despite the fact Reggie Anderson is saying that he had a dream, not a “dream”. And also despite Dan himself titling his blog piece yesterday, and from which I quoted in the OP, with a Reggie’s Anderson quote which says “The Dream That Changed My Life” rather than “The “Dream” That Changed My Life”. It’s also worth noting that the dream (not “dream”) that Reggie Anderson experienced, happened when he’d been hiking and decided to take a nap.

However, the suggestion that near-death experiences, whatever else they may or may not be, can be generally dismissed as nothing more than mere “dreams” seems to me plainly untenable. People don’t typically doze off and take naps during car or motorcycle accidents or airplane crashes or during difficult childbirths. They don’t commonly dream while medical instrumentation indicates zero brain activity. And dreams don’t usually convey verifiably correct information about what is happening in other rooms or on other floors of a hospital or about conversations transpiring many miles away from the location of the “dreamer.”

Sorry Dan. But you don’t have an example of an NDE that demonstrably happened during a period of zero brain activity, and you don’t have a single example of an NDE whereby the person who experienced it conveyed verifiable correct information about locations or conversations transpiring many miles away that isn’t just their own claim made retrospectively.

What we do have is tests of people who claim NDE’s but who failed to identify deliberately placed targets in and around the rooms where the person said they had an out of body experience.

So give it your best shot. Give us your most solid example that isn’t from a retrospective claim. And the. We can examine it. And play fair - for once recount what is actually said here, not what you want us to have said. And leave out the ad homs, when you sustained President Oaks you were agreeing to leave that poison behind.

[Rivendale]

I am able to do lucid dreaming occasionally. That in itself opens the door to every single supernatural claim that involves impressions, revelations and confirmation of ones faith.

Have you read any of the works of Carlos Castaneda?

... in his later works towards the end of his life, Castaneda attempts to explain the true nature of reality, describing reality as being composed of an "extensive web of energy that emanates from the central source" known as "the Eagle", focusing on the practice of lucid dreaming as well as "stalking" (changing one's personality, environment, and/or habitual behaviour, etc).

I wonder also if DCP has read Castaneda's works.

Thanks for the link about Castaneda's work. I have not read his work but a short perusal of his wiki page paints a bizarre story. Interesting how he seems to have co-opted the experience of lucid dreaming and built a quasi cult infrastructure out of it. Much like Smith did with the burning in the bosom and the connection with the holy ghost. Of course believers will scoff at naturalistic explanations of NDE's and other phenomenons in favor of their tightly held cherished beliefs. One can only hope for so long.

[huckelberry]

I am not remembering a lot of detail. It was 50 years ago when I read Castenadas early books. He is an engaging story teller presenting his stories as real and real instruction
Lucid dreaming may be a factor but mind altering plants are more central. He plays with the idea of mind altering reality not just altering dreams.

Or perhaps the books are stories about a witch using stories and manipulation to control people. His probably fictional witch is an engaging story creature who apparently became a pattern the author decided to live out.

[Tom]

I must point out that Doc Anderson's vision/dream of Jesus was not his first vision/dream. For his first vision/dream, we need to go back to when Anderson was a boy. At a young age, Reginald Anderson was an avid fan of The Popeye Show, which was hosted by a man dressed as a sailor who called himself Cousin Cliff and performed magic tricks and puppet shows during cartoon breaks.

It was on the morning of a beautiful, clear day, early in the spring summer of eighteen hundred and twenty nineteen hundred and sixty-two, in the 165th year of his age, that young Reginald was watching The Popeye Show with his two siblings. At the end of the program, Cousin Cliff made an "extraordinary announcement": one lucky boy or girl watching could win a Shetland pony along with a bridle and saddle. Young Reginald and his siblings excitedly filled out individual postcards to enter the contest. As mom and the kids headed off to the post office to mail the entries, however, young Reginald, small in stature but mighty in faith, instructed his mother not to mail his two siblings' entries. His mother, naturally, wanted to know why. Young Reginald matter-of-factly told her that he had had a dream the previous night, and that God had told him that he would win. Thus, there was no reason to send in his brother's and sister's postcards. His mother replied that she didn't want him to be disappointed if he didn't win. Now young Reginald didn't share details of his dream with his family, but he relates that in his dream, he was riding the pony in a clover field. "A voice with authority" spoke to him from the heavens: "You will win this pony, but you must share this gift with everyone who wants to ride this special horse." And then God paraphrased a saying that Anderson had learned at church: "To whom much is given, much is expected." Inside the post office, Anderson confidently told the postman that he was going to win the pony. The postman, a disbeliever, told the four-year-old not to get his hopes up too high because many other kids had also mailed in their entries.

Some days later, the family gathered around the black-and-white Zenith and got the finicky antenna adjusted just in time to hear Cousin Cliff announce that one Reginald Anderson had won Tex the pony. Naturally, young Reginald wasn't surprised. "Reggie, you won the pony," his seven-year-old sister exclaimed. Reginald quietly replied, "I know. I told you." His mother asked, "But how did you know?" Reginald responded, "God told me in my dream." A week later, Cousin Cliff personally delivered Tex to Reginald's home. Appointments with Heaven: The True Story of a Country Doctor’s Healing Encounters with the Hereafter (Carol Stream, IL: Tyndale Momentum, 2013), 8-14.

Those who are familiar with Joseph Smith's first vision accounts will understand Doc Anderson's reticence to share details of his dream/vision with unbelievers such as his mother and siblings and townsfolk. Compare Joseph Smith-History 1:21-25. And Latter-day Saints will easily recognize in Doc Anderson's account the divine pattern of God and his messengers paraphrasing scripture when speaking to God's children. Compare Joseph Smith-History 1:36-39. Finally, Latter-day Saints will find the tone of young Reginald's response to his mother ("God told me in my dream") reminiscent of Joseph Smith's icy comments to Lucy Mack Smith when she was asked what the matter was: “Never mind, all is well—I am well enough off. I have learned for myself that Presbyterianism is not true.”

The account of Doc Anderson's pony dream appears in a chapter titled "The First Dream," but I’m not sure, though, despite Doc Anderson's use of the term dream to describe it, that his experience was merely a dream. It might have been, of course. But it might also have been a privileged vision of the world to come. Or it might, itself, have been a kind of out-of-body near-death experience. Or it may have been aliens. It was probably aliens.

[Tom]

Unfortunately Dan refuses to take Reggie Anderson at his word…

Responding to my quotation, yesterday, from Dr. Reggie Anderson’s account of what he calls a “dream,” one not especially thoughtful critic leaps rather illogically to the suggestion that, if it’s a dream, then “near-death experiences” — to which, as I observed, Dr. Anderson’s account does indeed bear a few strong resemblances — are also mere dreams and not real experiences.

I’m not sure, though, despite Dr. Anderson’s use of the term dream to describe it, that his experience was merely a dream. It might have been, of course. But it might also have been a privileged vision of the world to come. Or it might, itself, have been a kind of out-of-body near-death experience. I don’t know.

Dan is straining at saying Reggie Anderson didn’t have a dream, he had a “dream”. Despite the fact Reggie Anderson is saying that he had a dream, not a “dream”. And also despite Dan himself titling his blog piece yesterday, and from which I quoted in the OP, with a Reggie’s Anderson quote which says “The Dream That Changed My Life” rather than “The “Dream” That Changed My Life”. It’s also worth noting that the dream (not “dream”) that Reggie Anderson experienced, happened when he’d been hiking and decided to take a nap.

I reviewed the chapter and noted a few things:

1. He arrived at a trailhead and spent the night in his car. That sleep was probably not optimal.

2. The next day, he set off mid-morning for a hike of more than six hours. That hike likely tired him.

3. Sometime in the afternoon, he set up camp. Late in the afternoon, he started a campfire.

4. He lay on his back and looked up at the trees. He thought about his life.

5. He grabbed a copy of Mere Christianity and read past sunset. He continued reading by firelight until he finished the book.

6. He pondered various questions. By then, he writes, it was “pitch-dark.”

7. He insisted that even though it was late, he wasn’t sleepy.

8. He grabbed a Bible and read by flashlight.

9. He says that even though he wasn’t tired, by the time he finished the Book of John, his eyes closed and he “fell into a deep sleep.”

10. He says this “slumber” was different than other sleep he had experienced. His mind “tumbled,” “overwhelming peace” filled him, and he “felt that everything was right with the world.”

11. After relating his “dream,” he indicates that a “cool breeze” woke him up. It was now dawn. He didn’t actually manage to reach the tent; rather, he had fallen asleep next to the campfire.

The Afore writes: “I’m not sure, though, despite Dr. Anderson’s use of the term dream to describe it, that his experience was merely a dream. It might have been, of course. But it might also have been a privileged vision of the world to come. Or it might, itself, have been a kind of out-of-body near-death experience. I don’t know.”

It seems pretty clear that Doc Anderson had a kind of out-of-body near-death experience.

[malkie]

Unfortunately Dan refuses to take Reggie Anderson at his word… Dan is straining at saying Reggie Anderson didn’t have a dream, he had a “dream”. Despite the fact Reggie Anderson is saying that he had a dream, not a “dream”. And also despite Dan himself titling his blog piece yesterday, and from which I quoted in the OP, with a Reggie’s Anderson quote which says “The Dream That Changed My Life” rather than “The “Dream” That Changed My Life”. It’s also worth noting that the dream (not “dream”) that Reggie Anderson experienced, happened when he’d been hiking and decided to take a nap.

I reviewed the chapter and noted a few things:

1. He arrived at a trailhead and spent the night in his car. That sleep was probably not optimal.

2. The next day, he set off mid-morning for a hike of more than six hours. That hike likely tired him.

3. Sometime in the afternoon, he set up camp. Late in the afternoon, he started a campfire.

4. He lay on his back and looked up at the trees. He thought about his life.

5. He grabbed a copy of Mere Christianity and read past sunset. He continued reading by firelight until he finished the book.

6. He pondered various questions. By then, he writes, it was “pitch-dark.”

7. He insisted that even though it was late, he wasn’t sleepy.

8. He grabbed a Bible and read by flashlight.

9. He says that even though he wasn’t tired, by the time he finished the Book of John, his eyes closed and he “fell into a deep sleep.”

10. He says this “slumber” was different than other sleep he had experienced. His mind “tumbled,” “overwhelming peace” filled him, and he “felt that everything was right with the world.”

11. After relating his “dream,” he indicates that a “cool breeze” woke him up. It was now dawn. He didn’t actually manage to reach the tent; rather, he had fallen asleep next to the campfire.

The Afore writes: “I’m not sure, though, despite Dr. Anderson’s use of the term dream to describe it, that his experience was merely a dream. It might have been, of course. But it might also have been a privileged vision of the world to come. Or it might, itself, have been a kind of out-of-body near-death experience. I don’t know.”

It seems pretty clear that Doc Anderson had a kind of out-of-body near-death experience.

[huckelberry]

Malkie,I am not clear as to just what is the chance you view as comically remote. People have seen, or tied to see all sorts of things in dreams. For a person to think a dream was a revelation does not require thinking it was not a dream. People have thought of dreams as a way of the mind trying to understand previous experience. That could be emotional problems or just the stuff of life. It could be psychological tangles. If one believes in inspiration from God one might think of a dream as the mind trying to come to terms with or understand that inspiration. I think it is possible some dreams are that.

[malkie]

Malkie,I am not clear as to just what is the chance you view as comically remote. People have seen, or tied to see all sorts of things in dreams. For a person to think a dream was a revelation does not require thinking it was not a dream. People have thought of dreams as a way of the mind trying to understand previous experience. That could be emotional problems or just the stuff of life. It could be psychological tangles. If one believes in inspiration from God one might think of a dream as the mind trying to come to terms with or understand that inspiration. I think it is possible some dreams are that.

Hey, huckelberry! You do ask the most interesting questions, and sometimes put a little bit of stress on my grey matter. But that's good for old folks like me - mental exercise is part of the reason I keep coming here.

I’m not sure, though, despite Dr. Anderson’s use of the term dream to describe it, that his experience was merely a dream. It might have been, of course. But it might also have been a privileged vision of the world to come. Or it might, itself, have been a kind of out-of-body near-death experience. I don’t know.

Let me answer by making this a bit more personal.

Suppose I have a dream - something that happens frequently. I describe it as a dream. You - who don't know me - say that the dream I described might have been "a privileged vision of the world to come". Or that it might have been "a kind of out-of-body near-death experience". You admit that don’t know. Am I supposed to take seriously your contention that, because I'm not required to have thought it to be anything other than a dream, it could have been a revelation? Is that a fair representation of your comment? If not, I'm open to correction.

How likely should anyone consider it to be that it wasn't "merely a dream"? Although my use of the gif was mocking, for the purposes of our conversation I'm simply trying to understand.

in my opinion it's entirely reasonable for anyone to consider the contention that it wasn't "merely a dream" to be sufficiently remote, and stretching, as to be comical. I do agree, however, that that is simply my opinion, and that anyone else could believe that, although it was my dream, they can claim that it wasn't "merely a dream". I just fail to see the justification for that view.

Here's another question for you: does your belief that my dream might have been "a privileged vision of the world to come", or "a kind of out-of-body near-death experience" depend on the content of my dream? In other words, is it a post hoc interpretation of something that you consider to be significant? Or are you prepared to say that all of my dreams, sight unseen by you, should be treated as potential revelations?

eta: what if you don't think that the dream I'll have tonight, when described to you, is anything other than a dream, but someone else is convinced that it's a communication from their long lost uncle, telling me I need to send three and fourpence for a dance ticket - or perhaps for a ham shank? (IHQ knows about this, I'll bet)? Where does it all end?

e2ta: "If one believes in inspiration from God one might think of a dream as the mind trying to come to terms with or understand that inspiration. I think it is possible some dreams are that."
Even accepting that idea for the sake of argument, does that also mean that it's somehow OK for someone else - some random person, as my son would say - to declare that perhaps a dream that seems of no particular significance to the dreamer is actually inspiration from God?

[I Have Questions]

Unfortunately Dan refuses to take Reggie Anderson at his word… Dan is straining at saying Reggie Anderson didn’t have a dream, he had a “dream”. Despite the fact Reggie Anderson is saying that he had a dream, not a “dream”. And also despite Dan himself titling his blog piece yesterday, and from which I quoted in the OP, with a Reggie’s Anderson quote which says “The Dream That Changed My Life” rather than “The “Dream” That Changed My Life”. It’s also worth noting that the dream (not “dream”) that Reggie Anderson experienced, happened when he’d been hiking and decided to take a nap.

I reviewed the chapter and noted a few things:

1. He arrived at a trailhead and spent the night in his car. That sleep was probably not optimal.

2. The next day, he set off mid-morning for a hike of more than six hours. That hike likely tired him.

3. Sometime in the afternoon, he set up camp. Late in the afternoon, he started a campfire.

4. He lay on his back and looked up at the trees. He thought about his life.

5. He grabbed a copy of Mere Christianity and read past sunset. He continued reading by firelight until he finished the book.

6. He pondered various questions. By then, he writes, it was “pitch-dark.”

7. He insisted that even though it was late, he wasn’t sleepy.

8. He grabbed a Bible and read by flashlight.

9. He says that even though he wasn’t tired, by the time he finished the Book of John, his eyes closed and he “fell into a deep sleep.”

10. He says this “slumber” was different than other sleep he had experienced. His mind “tumbled,” “overwhelming peace” filled him, and he “felt that everything was right with the world.”

11. After relating his “dream,” he indicates that a “cool breeze” woke him up. It was now dawn. He didn’t actually manage to reach the tent; rather, he had fallen asleep next to the campfire.

The Afore writes: “I’m not sure, though, despite Dr. Anderson’s use of the term dream to describe it, that his experience was merely a dream. It might have been, of course. But it might also have been a privileged vision of the world to come. Or it might, itself, have been a kind of out-of-body near-death experience. I don’t know.”

It seems pretty clear that Doc Anderson had a kind of out-of-body near-death experience.

Dan has created his own problem here. He’s drawn attention to someone experiencing the exact same sort of thing that people claiming a near death experience report. But that someone experienced those things whilst in no jeopardy. Reggie Anderson was simply overtired and in a sub optimal sleeping situation. So he dreamt, vividly. I know Dan would like to frame it as “dreamt” rather than dreamt, but that creates another set of problems for himself - how to explain Reggie’s “dream” in the context of Joseph Smith’s “dream”. And then explain why no modern Apostle can report similar experiences.

Of course, the most reasonable explanation, that accounts for all the objective evidence is that everyone is just dreaming.

[Tom]

I must point out that Doc Anderson's vision/dream of Jesus was not his first vision/dream. For his first vision/dream, we need to go back to when Anderson was a boy. At a young age, Reginald Anderson was an avid fan of The Popeye Show, which was hosted by a man dressed as a sailor who called himself Cousin Cliff and performed magic tricks and puppet shows during cartoon breaks.

It was on the morning of a beautiful, clear day, early in the spring summer of eighteen hundred and twenty nineteen hundred and sixty-two, in the 165th year of his age, that young Reginald was watching The Popeye Show with his two siblings. At the end of the program, Cousin Cliff made an "extraordinary announcement": one lucky boy or girl watching could win a Shetland pony along with a bridle and saddle. Young Reginald and his siblings excitedly filled out individual postcards to enter the contest. As mom and the kids headed off to the post office to mail the entries, however, young Reginald, small in stature but mighty in faith, instructed his mother not to mail his two siblings' entries. His mother, naturally, wanted to know why. Young Reginald matter-of-factly told her that he had had a dream the previous night, and that God had told him that he would win. Thus, there was no reason to send in his brother's and sister's postcards. His mother replied that she didn't want him to be disappointed if he didn't win. Now young Reginald didn't share details of his dream with his family, but he relates that in his dream, he was riding the pony in a clover field. "A voice with authority" spoke to him from the heavens: "You will win this pony, but you must share this gift with everyone who wants to ride this special horse." And then God paraphrased a saying that Anderson had learned at church: "To whom much is given, much is expected." Inside the post office, Anderson confidently told the postman that he was going to win the pony. The postman, a disbeliever, told the four-year-old not to get his hopes up too high because many other kids had also mailed in their entries.

Some days later, the family gathered around the black-and-white Zenith and got the finicky antenna adjusted just in time to hear Cousin Cliff announce that one Reginald Anderson had won Tex the pony. Naturally, young Reginald wasn't surprised. "Reggie, you won the pony," his seven-year-old sister exclaimed. Reginald quietly replied, "I know. I told you." His mother asked, "But how did you know?" Reginald responded, "God told me in my dream." A week later, Cousin Cliff personally delivered Tex to Reginald's home. Appointments with Heaven: The True Story of a Country Doctor’s Healing Encounters with the Hereafter (Carol Stream, IL: Tyndale Momentum, 2013), 8-14.

Those who are familiar with Joseph Smith's first vision accounts will understand Doc Anderson's reticence to share details of his dream/vision with unbelievers such as his mother and siblings and townsfolk. Compare Joseph Smith-History 1:21-25. And Latter-day Saints will easily recognize in Doc Anderson's account the divine pattern of God and his messengers paraphrasing scripture when speaking to God's children. Compare Joseph Smith-History 1:36-39. Finally, Latter-day Saints will find the tone of young Reginald's response to his mother ("God told me in my dream") reminiscent of Joseph Smith's icy comments to Lucy Mack Smith when she was asked what the matter was: “Never mind, all is well—I am well enough off. I have learned for myself that Presbyterianism is not true.”

The account of Doc Anderson's pony dream appears in a chapter titled "The First Dream," but I’m not sure, though, despite Doc Anderson's use of the term dream to describe it, that his experience was merely a dream. It might have been, of course. But it might also have been a privileged vision of the world to come. Or it might, itself, have been a kind of out-of-body near-death experience. Or it may have been aliens. It was probably aliens.

To be clear here: I am not making this up. Anderson relates in his book a story of being told in a “dream” (his word) by God that he would win a pony and then entering the The Popeye Show contest and winning a pony named Tex. He was four years old at the time. (I must say that I am impressed that the adult Anderson remembers the incident so vividly fifty years later, recounting the words of conversations he had with his family members and the postman.)