Sucking up to the boss…

[MG 2.0]

Oaks was my neighbor when he moved back to Provo (when he was put in as BYU Pres.). He lived across the street from us and I was a Junior in high school.

So when he was your neighbor apparently he wasn't living where other university presidents lived from 1928 until 1990 on Temple Hill just north of the Maeser Building. Oaks served from 1971 to 1980.

Do you know why he chose to live in your neighborhood rather than where other BYU presidents and their families normally would live?

The President's Home underwent remodeling specifically to accommodate his family when he was appointed as president. Maybe you're thinking of just before the Oak's family moved to the President's home? If so, he wouldn't have been your neighbor very long, right?

Regards,
MG

[Madison54]

Oaks was my neighbor when he moved back to Provo (when he was put in as BYU Pres.). He lived across the street from us and I was a Junior in high school.

The President's Home underwent remodeling specifically to accommodate his family when he was appointed as president. Maybe you're thinking of just before the Oak's family moved to the President's home? If so, he wouldn't have been your neighbor very long, right?

Regards,
MG

Not sure why that matters

But they were there for at least a year, If I recall correctly. Long enough to associate with them at church and be in their home. Doesn't take long to see arrogance, cockiness and an attitude of superiority even observed by a teenager (along with overhearing other's same impressions from many).

I don't care at all if you continue putting him on a pedestal. That's definitely your choice.

It does not change my own personal experience with the man.

[Everybody Wang Chung]

Here are some additional excerpts from people who personally knew Dallas:

From Lance, a survivor of the BYU electroshock/aversion therapy era of the 1970s:

As a freshman at BYU, I worked for the two doctors involved in this awful therapy (Dr. D. Eugene Thorne & Dr. Reed Payne). I was hired to be their receptionist in their private practice (they were partners). I only worked there a few months and hated it. I actually feared these two men as they were never nice or kind to me during the time I worked there.

I had to work late one night to get some letters typed for Thorne and he was there too. He didn't like that I stayed but he needed the letters to go out.
A patient came in (a young man) and went back into the therapy room with Thorne. I'll never forget what I heard. It wasn't long before I could hear him crying, screaming and then loudly vomiting. It was horrific.
All of a sudden the door flew open and he came running out with only his shirt on and carrying the rest of his clothes. He ran past me and out the door.

Payne immediately came out and started yelling at me for not stopping him and setting up another appointment. I gathered my stuff up and left.

The next morning, I asked an older lady who had worked there longer than I had (she was also a receptionist as I was just part time). She told me I'd overheard a new therapy that will cure a person of being gay. That they are given a drug that makes them sick and then shown gay porn. They start throwing up and will then associate that with gay thoughts, etc.

After she left, I went into Thorne's office (he wasn't there that day....both he and Payne were professors up at BYU, Thorne was the head of BYU’s Psych Department), needing an envelope. We were out of them at the front desk. I opened a closet door thinking it may be a supply closet and found the chair, projector and the electric shock wires & equipment. It freaked me out.

I immediately went out and called Thorne's number, left a message on his answering machine telling him I was quiting that day and wouldn't be back....and I wasn't.

It wasn't until many years later that I knew the extent of what these evil men had been doing, but it's well documented now with many witnesses naming them.

On another personal experience note.....

Oaks was my neighbor when he moved back to Provo (when he was put in as BYU Pres.). He lived across the street from us and I was a Junior in high school. He was as creepy then as he is now. He was also arrogant and cocky. I only went into their home once. It felt cold and off. His wife was nice though. They asked me to babysit their youngest daughter once and I said "no". No one in our ward liked him, but people did suck up to him.

Sounds like it's still happening

Madison,

I am so sorry for the trauma and pain you experienced. It is heartbreaking that something so awful was carried out by someone who claimed to have God's permission and direction.

[MG 2.0]

The President's Home underwent remodeling specifically to accommodate his family when he was appointed as president. Maybe you're thinking of just before the Oak's family moved to the President's home? If so, he wouldn't have been your neighbor very long, right?

Regards,
MG

Not sure why that matters

But they were there for at least a year, If I recall correctly. Long enough to associate with them at church and be in their home. Doesn't take long to see arrogance, cockiness and an attitude of superiority even observed by a teenager (along with overhearing other's same impressions from many).

I don't care at all if you continue putting him on a pedestal. That's definitely your choice.

It does not change my own personal experience with the man.

No worries. I remember walking by the President’s Home often when walking up on campus. I always wondered if the President or his family were at home and/or if I would see them out in the yard or leaving somewhere, etc. Never did.

I used to work for the church part time in the Temple Dept. for over twenty years. I got to know some of the temple engineers, cafeteria managers, and temple recorders pretty well. I did hear stories concerning the aloofness of some leaders and that they could be somewhat demanding and seemingly unforgiving. One engineer told me about getting called to President Monson’s home to do some electrical work and said that he was not treated very well.

They are definitely human like the rest of us.

I wonder when Oaks was preparing to move his family into the President’s Home if he was somewhat preoccupied and overwhelmed with responsibility associated with his new assignment, etc., and was under a great deal of stress. There can be things going on in a person’s life that may affect their relationships with others. I’m sure you’ve experienced that. Most of us have anyway.

I’m actually not one of those people that puts people on a pedestal because they have a particular position. Trump for example.

I do look at the offices people hold, however, with the due respect they deserve.

Regards,
MG

[Madison54]

Madison,

I am so sorry for the trauma and pain you experienced. It is heartbreaking that something so awful was carried out by someone who claimed to have God's permission and direction.

Thank you....and yes, I agree.

For anyone to have sanctioned such horrific treatment of another human being, is pure evil.

And I absolutely believe that Oaks ok'd it or this blackmail & torture would have never happened at BYU while he was the president.

[Madison54]

They are definitely human like the rest of us.

I wonder when Oaks was preparing to move his family into the President’s Home if he was somewhat preoccupied and overwhelmed with responsibility associated with his new assignment, etc., and was under a great deal of stress. There can be things going on in a person’s life that may affect their relationships with others. I’m sure you’ve experienced that. Most of us have anyway.

I’m actually not one of those people that puts people on a pedestal because they have a particular position. Trump for example.

I do look at the offices people hold, however, with the due respect they deserve.

Regards,
MG

Thank you for your response and thoughts. I agree with some of them, but not others.

I actually do not have respect for some "offices" that people hold.

But, we can hopefully just agree to disagree on that

[MG 2.0]

Here are some additional excerpts from people who personally knew Dallas:

From Lance, a survivor of the BYU electroshock/aversion therapy era of the 1970s:

As a freshman at BYU, I worked for the two doctors involved in this awful therapy (Dr. D. Eugene Thorne & Dr. Reed Payne). I was hired to be their receptionist in their private practice (they were partners). I only worked there a few months and hated it. I actually feared these two men as they were never nice or kind to me during the time I worked there.

The Payne Papers" (later titled Prologue) compiled by Lee Williams, a gay professor, and activist students provided a defense of gay Mormons, criticized the university's treatment and therapies, and was anonymously distributed to high-ranking LDS Church leaders.

Up to that point behaviorism and aversion conditioning were widely practiced across major research universities nationwide (including Harvard and UCLA). Many behavioral psychologists at BYU viewed electric aversion as a standard, cutting-edge clinical tool rather than something controversial or fringe.

I think Lee Williams was a pioneer who helped reshape things at BYU. I’m not sure if the positive changes that occurred at BYU occurred in tandem at UCLA and Harvard. Someone else might be able to chime in and tell us when aversion therapy was discontinued at other universities.

Was BYU ahead of the curve or behind?

Here is a video telling the stories of some of those who were unfortunately harmed during this time.

https://youtu.be/biGQs20JhW0?is=9H5l_uSfXKGRJLd-

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

One more thing. Did you work at the clinic when Dr. Card (Eugene?) was there? He had his own private practice outside of BYU in addition to being at the clinic you worked at.

It goes to show that the Academy can be hoodwinked…along with administration…into following current trends and research.

Hopefully lessons were learned.

By President Oaks too. The church has come a long way but will probably not change or diminish its core theology. One might wonder, along with some of those in the video I provided, where that puts those that through no fault of their own are gay…by nature.

We have a gay daughter who is married to another woman. They both had toed the line and married men and had children but later, when society had changed, were able to declare themselves to be authentically who they were. Unfortunately there have been some hearts broken along the way.

When they were married and had their reception MANY of their LDS ward members and friends showed up for them. That made them/us happy and hopeful for fuller integration into the Mormon community if our daughter and her spouse decide to remain in the church at some activity level.

We’ll see how it plays out.

Regards,
MG

[Madison54]

One more thing. Did you work at the clinic when Dr. Card (Eugene?) was there? He had his own private practice outside of BYU in addition to being at the clinic you worked at.

You are referring to Dr. Robert Duane Card and no, I didn't know him.

I worked at Dr. Thorne & Dr. Payne's private practice which was over near the Utah Valley Hospital.

Here's this on Card:
https://archive.qsaltlake.com/news/2020 ... to-effect/

[Madison54]

We have a gay daughter who is married to another woman. They both had toed the line and married men and had children but later, when society had changed, were able to declare themselves to be authentically who they were. Unfortunately there have been some hearts broken along the way.

When they were married and had their reception MANY of their LDS ward members and friends showed up for them. That made them/us happy and hopeful for fuller integration into the Mormon community if our daughter and her spouse decide to remain in the church at some activity level.

We’ll see how it plays out.

Regards,
MG

I hope your daughter has found happiness