Problematic John Dehlin, a short list

[Kukulkan]

snip

If that is true and can be backed up by evidence I agree that it is reprehensible behavior.

[pistolero]

podcasters are not salaried employees (rather, they are outside contractors provided no benefits and paid relative pennies per download, on the justification that Open Stories Foundation is based in Utah, a right-to-work state).

I mean, this seems fair to me. Your podcast does well = you get paid more. You podcast doesn't do well = you don't get paid more. MS podcast is most likely the primary source of income for the Open Stories Foundation so I don't see how it is unfair that John Dehlin receives most of the revenue. We have no evidence to suggest that if a Open Stories Foundation podcast other than MS became super popular that payment would continue on the meritocratic system and not move to a salary based position.

Can people choose if they want to donate to a specific podcast in the Open Stories Foundation? I agree the above sounds fair, but I'd be interested to know if I could make sure my cash donations get to a specific recipient?

[Meadowchik]

Someone should self publish a biography of John Dehlin. A lot of people have clearly spent a lot of time pouring over his life and analysing his behaviour. It reminds me a bit of the flack that DCP gets. I guess that's what happens when you're in the cross hairs.

Just saying. I'll commit to buying a copy here and now.

Of course high profile people are subjected to scrutiny. But sometimes they are also excused when they behave badly because of the proximal power they can offer people around them.

Also, just to spice this new thread up, can we move it to the Telestial forum, so we can discuss some of the R/NC-17 of his behaviour? I still have some questions I'd like to explore.

No thanks, you can start your own thread for that.

[Kukulkan]

As far as points 2,3, and 4 goes.

2) I am partial to this point because I am not a huge fan of the whole 'life coaching' craze. I honestly wasn't even aware that JD did it until recently. He must be terrible at advertising it. Yeah, I agree that him touting his PhD and degrees is murky. To give him the benefit of the doubt in the link you shared to his coaching page he does share a link to a pdf that explains the difference between coaching and psychotherapy. But yes, murky indeed.

Note: Coaching is NOT the same thing as psychotherapy. Before reaching out, please read this document to understand the main differences between psychotherapy and coaching.

3) Again I need specific situations and evidence to address this issue.

4) I do agree with this point as well. I don't think it is intentional behavior on his part.

Ultimately I generally agree with what you say. I think it is difficult for people because MS has been such an integral part of their faith journey. Every person I have spoke to who watches MS regularly all seem to share the sentiment that while JD is a good host, he is not the reason they watch. I think it makes things difficult because while JD is the center of a lot of things ex-mo, his presence on MS strangely background, while his interviewees are the reason people are compelled to watch. If JD is reading this, I do hope he takes many of the things we are saying on here to heart. I think he could learn a lot from it.

[Meadowchik]

3) Again I need specific situations and evidence to address this issue.

I recommend spending some time in the Facebook groups Mormon Enlightenment, Mormon Stories, and Mormon Stories Podcast Community. Watch his posts and watch what happens when he is mentioned and/or criticized.

4) I do agree with this point as well. I don't think it is intentional behavior on his part.

Intentional or not, it's still harmful. Impact matters more than intent. That's why responding to feedback can be essential to a moral life.

Ultimately I generally agree with what you say. I think it is difficult for people because MS has been such an integral part of their faith journey. Every person I have spoke to who watches MS regularly all seem to share the sentiment that while John Dehlin is a good host, he is not the reason they watch. I think it makes things difficult because while John Dehlin is the center of a lot of things ex-mo, his presence on MS strangely background, while his interviewees are the reason people are compelled to watch. If John Dehlin is reading this, I do hope he takes many of the things we are saying on here to heart. I think he could learn a lot from it.

I agree on a lot of this. MS was important for me as well, in the very beginning. It is really difficult to think rationally about conflict revolution when you've left Mormonism which does not develop great skills for conflict resolution. It relies on patriarchy and submission, and pressures people into so-called forgiveness.

[Kishkumen]

I am going to cut against the whole framing of this post by saying that people are always free not to work for John Dehlin, follow Mormon Stories, or participate in Open Stories events. I would put myself largely in the group of non-participants. I listen to his podcast when he has a really interesting guest. I used to listen more regularly, but, honestly, the Mormon podcast world started to get more crowded, so I started to listen to other Mormon podcasts as well. I also started to listen to other kinds of podcasts.

Not that it is any of my business, but, hey, so much of what this is is not any of our personal business, but I would be interested to know about Meadochik's personal experience with John Dehlin and Mormon Stories. She is welcome not to answer my question.

In any case, "problematic" is a word I use about various things. It is an overused word. In some ways I would say it is the kind of word we use when we want to find fault with something and create a general sense of being unsettled or suspicious of it in others, without really having anything decisively critical to say, or perhaps, we don't really want to commit to or back up our negative judgment about something.

It's "problematic."

We have "concerns."

This is response to request for an elaboration on my claims that Dehlin tends to problematic behaviors. I decided to start a new thread since this topic is more broad than his relationship with Rosebud.

1)Open Stories Foundation impropriety and his responses since: including the Rosebud drama, the disagreements with Amy Grubbs (under NDA) and Kristy Money. Much of that seems to be a pattern of seeking free or underpaid labor, and then running into trouble when people don't like how they're treated. Dehlin seems to have a habit of needing to get rid of all or most everyone at Open Stories Foundation, refilling the positions, then having to purge again.

https://dearjohndehlin.wordpress.com/tag/kate-kelly/
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1385 ... 21729.html
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1335 ... 87272.html

We have heard a lot about this stuff. I can't say that my mind is blown by these "issues." Of all of them, I am most concerned about the Rosebud stuff, in that I think it was very poor form. The other stuff is interesting because it amounts to "I don't like the way John Dehlin runs his business." OK. Fine. You don't have to work for him. You don't have to follow his stuff. Many times I have said that I would not work for the guy because he doesn't seem to be a particularly good boss. I am satisfied that I have made the right decision. I recommend my way of handling this to everyone else.

Everything I have heard about the Kristey Money stuff frankly seems like mildly sympathetic whinging. NDAs are fairly common and no, Dehlin is not obliged to release someone from an NDA they freely entered into (funny how so many people have problems with voluntary, adult decisions these days).

2)Professional grey area in representing himself. Dehlin touts his Phd in clinical and counselling psychology yet to this day remains unlicensed to practice therapy in Utah. He gets around this by calling his services “coaching.” What he is doing might be technically legal in Utah, but I think we can say it is ethically questionable.

https://www.johndehlin.com/coaching/

First of all, he did earn an actual, legitimate PhD from an esteemed institution of higher learning. Placing this within the framework of a "grey area" is frankly sloppy and prejudiced. He was under no obligation to become licensed to practice within a traditional psychological counseling framework, and I am absolutely baffled that you would complain about life coaching, which, honestly, is perfectly legal. Where is the "grey area" here?

3)Pretending to be anti-misogynist then silencing women who hold him to account. He explicitly asks for feedback and ends up deleting, muting, or blocking dozens of women who raise legitimate concerns about his own behavior. He and his friends do this in several groups in response to criticism of him.

Which women? Holding him to account how? Not men? He doesn't ban, delete, or mute men? Only women? If so, where is your evidence? You see, my impression, and it is not a flattering one of John, is that he tends to fly off the handle and ban, delete, and mute people who attack him on his own social media groups. I think it is bad, but I also haven't seen that he singles out women for this treatment.

There is one way in which I think this impression could come about, however, and that is in the context of this Mofluencer War in which figures like KK get angry with Dehlin for one reason or another and decide to go on a crusade against him, recruiting people like Rosebud and Kristey Money, and stoking their grudges.Then if someone shows up in one of his social media groups, armed and enflamed by this pseudo-crusade, he probably doesn't want to deal with their nonsense.

4)Centering himself continually, like when Michael Quinn passed away, he was one of the earliest to post the news, and he did it before Quinn’s family.

Yeah, people who tend toward narcissism do crummy things like this. I saw when he posted about it, and I was happy to see that a lot of people jumped down his throat to let him know he was totally out of bounds on this.

He has a personal problem which ends up hurting people: he has built his livelihood around this while not being competent enough to de-center himself. He therefore invites (not just attacks from believers or smears) legitimate criticisms. But instead of really responding to consumer feedback like a competent professional, he reacts in Mormon-authoritarian fashion. He’s perpetuating those unhealthy behaviors. His media reach amplifies that and the damage such behavior causes, both the potential for damage and the actual harm.

Ideally, Dehlin would be more responsive to criticism. But at the very least, hopefully more of us can continue to unlearn the very Mormon tendency to look for a male authority figure and be more circumspect about who we support. Ultimately, I hope for multiple communities of broader support, communities with less infighting and more self-awareness.

I agree with you about being responsive to criticism, but I don't think people should expect that he is going to be able to satisfy their every disagreement with him and have him meet with their personal approval on their own pet issues. And, honestly, I think that some of this complaining is frankly phony-baloney BS.

#1 is really a matter for him and those who work with him of their own free will. Don't like his business model? Don't do business with him.

#2 is a complete non-issue.

#3 is overblown, and the KK brigade merits almost no credence. They are extremist ideologues with an axe to grind and dubious motives.

#4 is a genuine issue that undoubtedly contributes to problem #1 on the list, and to the extent #3 is an issue--and I think it rises to the level of clumsy, average sexist behavior--some of that too.

But overall I am unconcerned about "concerns" about things that are "problematic." Show me credible evidence as gathered by relatively fair people and I will listen. These days it is almost impossible to find that kind of discussion of John Dehlin because too many people with ulterior motives have clouded the environment with their BS.

[Fence Sitter]

Dan Peterson called.

He wants his place back as the most mentioned person on this board.

[Kishkumen]

Dan Peterson called.

He wants his place back as the most mentioned person on this board.

Well, he would be more interesting if he were still "problematic." Then we would have "concerns" to mull over. Unfortunately we used him up as a popular topic when we moved from problematic to full on demonization. Now only a committed cult of people continues to follow the Peterson narrative closely.

[Tavares Standfield]

1)Open Stories Foundation impropriety and his responses since: including the Rosebud drama, the disagreements with Amy Grubbs (under NDA) and Kristy Money. Much of that seems to be a pattern of seeking free or underpaid labor, and then running into trouble when people don't like how they're treated. Dehlin seems to have a habit of needing to get rid of all or most everyone at Open Stories Foundation, refilling the positions, then having to purge again.

Lie

2)Professional grey area in representing himself. Dehlin touts his Phd in clinical and counselling psychology yet to this day remains unlicensed to practice therapy in Utah. He gets around this by calling his services “coaching.” What he is doing might be technically legal in Utah, but I think we can say it is ethically questionable.

Another Lie. John has literally helped thousands of people repair their lives and you are worried about legalities? And you want to talk ethics?

3)Pretending to be anti-misogynist then silencing women who hold him to account. He explicitly asks for feedback and ends up deleting, muting, or blocking dozens of women who raise legitimate concerns about his own behavior. He and his friends do this in several groups in response to criticism of him.

Lie. John has been one of the most important and influential allies of Mormon women to emerge in the past decades.

4)Centering himself continually, like when Michael Quinn passed away, he was one of the earliest to post the news, and he did it before Quinn’s family.

"Centering himself?" WTH are you talking about? Thousands of people turn to John for up-to-the-minute updates about all things LDS. And you take a dump on him for doing it?

He has a personal problem which ends up hurting people: he has built his livelihood around this while not being competent enough to de-center himself.

Yeah. John is so incompetent that Mormon Stories has been a complete failure. /facepalm

Do you read what you type before hitting submit?

Ideally, Dehlin would be more responsive to criticism

John doesn't owe anybody crap. How entitled are YOU to think you deserve any type of response to the BS "criticism" he receives.

Once again, the enemies of Mormon Stories have surfaced to hurt John. A cycle as predictable as Cicadas. But in this case it is rats.

[Dr Exiled]

Thanks for posting this Meadowchick.

I don't particularly like the public Dehlin persona and don't know the guy personally. Like many, I listen to some of his stuff, but not all. I'm really tired of his constant push to create victims out of those facing excommunication. I get it, the church wants a breakup and wants to appear like it has authority and it often looks silly doing so. However, I don't see the big deal as much any more and hamming up the supposed pain only plays into the false authority dynamic.

He also lost me with the fake victimhood he tried to create with the Kwaku video. Grow a pair is what I would say to Dehlin. I'd like a little more pointing out how ridiculous the church is instead of acting like little brother who is always hurt and running to mommy.

As far as his business goes, he seems like a typical narcissist that needs constant attention and fawning and probably is quick to jump in and take the spotlight away from perceived rivals. I wouldn't want to work for him. I can see him as a harasser but Rosebud welcomed a lot of the attention and ultimately she had to go regardless of whether JD is liable for some relatively small damages.

I guess I'm with Kish on the Kristi Money thing. JD seems like a hard negotiator and its a big world out there for the Kristi Moneys and whomever to podcast whatever they want and get paid doing their own thing. I also don't see a problem with his policing his social media and forcing detractors off. He is his brand and I guess he needs to push it and cannot tolerate dissent, like probably all businesses.