1 Nephi 14:10-12 'There are save two churchds only'

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_charity
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Re: 1 Nephi 14:10-12 'There are save two churchds only'

Post by _charity »

charity wrote:
Jason Bourne wrote:
charity wrote:1 Ne. 14: 10-12 And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth.

What is your objection to this?


First before I opine let me ask you...which Church is the Church of the Lamb of God?


You have to stop thinking of the Church of the Lamb of God as a physical organization. It is in the hearts of men.


Edit to add: The "you" isn't you, Jason. It's those other guys.
_dartagnan
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Post by _dartagnan »

You evidently think psychologists know a lot more than they do.


And you evidently do not accept that they know as much as they do.

While they can explain a lot, they are left with the problem of reporting.


Straw man alert.

What I am talking about if the phenomenon of confirmation bias and how recent brain imaging has told us what is actually going on in the human mind. According to SHermer, "Now a functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI) study shows where in the brain the confirmation bias arises and how it is unconsciousand driven by emotions."

In a study involving political pundits, supporters of candidates were given unflattering information about the candidate they were supporting. What happened in their brains ws revealing. Reasoning didn't kick in at all:

" The neuroimaging results, however, revealed that the part of the brain most associated with reasoning--the dorsolateral prefrontal cortex--was quiescent. Most active were the orbital frontal cortex, which is involved in the processing of emotions; the anterior cingulate, which is associated with conflict resolution; the posterior cingulate, which is concerned with making judgments about moral accountability; and--once subjects had arrived at a conclusion that made them emotionally comfortable--the ventral striatum, which is related to reward and pleasure."

According to Westen:

""Essentially, it appears as if partisans twirl the cognitive kaleidoscope until they get the conclusions they want, and then they get massively reinforced for it, with the elimination of negative emotional states and activation of positive ones,""

Essentially what this means is that when people already have their minds made up abut something (i.e. "I know the Church is true") they will perform all sorts of mental gymnastics to downplay disconfirmatory evidence, and ultimately they reward themselves with thoughts that make them feel better.

Your post is a perfect example of this; confirmation bias in action.

There is absolutely no hint of reasoning taking place in your brain. All you did was blow off my comments with self-soothing rhetoric.

When I point out that the CHurch actually tries to rush an investigator throug the baptism process, thereby denying them reasonable period to perform critical independent research, you responded with three different pieces of crap that serve only to sooth the conflict going on in your brain:

#1"All invetigators are encourage to read the Book of Mormon for themselves, pray for their own witness."

How does this resolve the problem? You merely assume that reading the Book of Mormon is all one needs to do to reach an informed conclusion about the truth claims of the Church. How absurd. But they do not encourage anyone to read the entire Book of Mormon before committing to baptism because they do not expect them to make a decision based on information. They want a decision based on emotion.

#2 "Of course, since you have denied that there is such a witness then you can't progress any further in a civil discussion about this.

Ah, the old self-soothing canard about how your opponent must be uncivil and "embittered." Again excusing yourself from engaging in any kind of reasoning or self-critical analysis. Your presence here is all about soothing charity. You get off on writing up ridiculous responses like these because it makes you feel good. ANd here is your third piece of ignorance:

#3 "I suppose next time you go to a doctor and he tells you about a needed medical procedure, you are going to tell him you have to go to medical school before you can make an informed decision. Sure."

What the hell are you talking about? So now ignorant 19 year old kids serving LDS missions, with no advice other than "read and pray," are comparable to doctors with 10 years of advanced education?

I wish I could have seen the MRI when your brain hopped through so many mental obstacles to come up with this little tid-bit of stupidity. You are one of the wort apologists at FAIR because you don't even seem to realize how stupid yur comments are. Your reasoning department has completely shut down. This is all about conjuring up ways to make charity feel good in face of many problematic disconfirmatory evidences about her faith. So stop pretending you came here to debate anything. You don't debate. You never have. You hang around with pithy comments because it is mentally soothing to think you are somehow sticking it to those who present disconfirmatory evidences.
“All knowledge of reality starts from experience and ends in it...Propositions arrived at by purely logical means are completely empty as regards reality." - Albert Einstein
_cacheman
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Post by _cacheman »

I didn't' see what cacheman said as a question about accepting.

Hi Charity,

Let me provide a repost for you.

anything which leads people away from God is a detriment to individual progess. Since God has commanded men (and women) not to practice homosexuality, anything which encourages or permits homosexuality is of the church of the devil.


How do you feel about a Christian faith system that believes homosexuality is not against the will of God? Are they simultaneously part of both the church of the Lamb of God and the church of the devil? In other words, in your perception, how much 'wrongness' in doctrine and practice is OK before an organization or individual is categorized part of the church of the devil? How much 'rightness' in doctrine and practice is necessary to be part of the church of the lamb of God?


cacheman
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Post by _Zoidberg »

charity wrote:I guess that is the big question. I don't have any twinges of conscience on the matter. If you do, you should listen to the still small voice.


I don't now. I did as a TBM, though. I'm sure it's different for different TBMs, though, so I'm not doubting your sincerity.

You can't change the definitions in mid discussion.


And who is doing that?

The Church of Christ and the Church of the Lamb are not the same thing. There is an earthly church organization, and there is the heavenly one. I don't think it is necessary to be LDS to be heading toward the heavenly organization. Although, before anyone gets there, they will have to conform their lives in complete obedience to the Father. Which means all the ordinances of the Gospel.


Okay, what about living people today that can have their calling and election made sure? Don't those people have to be LDS, since you obviously believe that all the ordinances of the Gospel are only available in the LDS church? Everyone else may be heading toward the heavenly organization, but what organization are they currently in?

Yes. If they have completely denied their spiritual witnesses they have received. If they stay and partake of the sacrament they are in deep trouble. That is different from having doubts. If a person has doubts, the place to resolve them is at Church. But the doubting person will not be trying to take people down with him. The ones who want to do that are the devil's minions, who want others to be as miserable as they are.


Define "taking people down with him". How many people actually actively try to proselytize against the Church using the same door-to-door tactics as it does? Not many that I know of.

I[b] didn't' see what cacheman said as a question about accepting. We should accept all people, no matter who or what they are. We do not have to accept behaviors which are opposed to the laws and commandments of God. And your problem with waiting for something from the First Presidency is you don't understand the difference between being and doing.


Oh please. Is your opinion of my intelligence really so low? I just find it rather amusing that a church started by someone who very much indulged himself sexually, as well as later prophets, is now denying people not only sexual gratification of any kind, but also being affectionate in a non-sexual way with people they are attracted to.

A person who has homosexual attractions does not have to act them out. Just as a married man may feel attracted to someone not his wife. He needs to deal with those feelings, but he will still be a member in good standing if he just keeps his feelings to himself, and doesn't proposition the person he is attracted to. When you understand this difference you will see why holding your breath for a change in Church doctrine to accept homosexual BEHAVIOR is not a good idea.


I was referring more to trying to interfere with non-LDS people's business and imposing LDS doctrinal mentality on them. Incidentally, I also think that gay people will be able to marry in the temple within my lifetime. You might be spared the sight of it, though, since there are a few decades of age difference between us, it seems.

I would be very interested to know what constitutes a pro-homosexual organization, in your opinion.

[b]
Here are just a few.
The International Lesbian and Gay Association
The Human Rights Campaign
The Gay and Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation
Outrage
The International Gay and Lesbian Human Rights Comission
Egale Canada
The Lavender Network
book publishers which publish books like "Heather Has Two Mommies"
The Gay, Lesbian and Straight Education Network (GLSEN)
Parents, Families and Friends of Lesbians and Gays (PFLAG)
The National Education Association, which has a homosexual caucus
This doesn't come close to being exhaustive.


So most people belong to the church of the devil since they might be involved with these organizations in one way or the other, especially the NEA and publishers?

I'm just waiting for you to realize how little sense you are making. First you are talking about accepting "people with homosexual attractions", then turn around and condemn "pro-homosexual" organizations like PFLAG. Do you think everyone in PFLAG has a family member who is having gay sex left and right? Some of them don't, they just come out of the closet. Are you suggesting that it's okay to be gay as long as you not only lead a life of complete abstinence from physical affection with members of the sex you are attracted to, but also stay in the closet? I suppose lying about why you are not getting married and dodging the commandment to start multiplying and replenishing the Earth is justified in this case.

I suppose going and paying tutition to any college that doesn't kick out people who have gay sex would also constitute membership in the church of the devil. Boy, you really can't be too careful these days. Better follow the example of Colorado City and move to an isolated compound.

charity wrote:Titus 1:15-16 "Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience [light of Christ]is defiled. They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate."

The identification of the light of Christ as being synomomous with the conscience is found in Mormon Doctrine p. 157.


It's interesting how apologists are not above quoting McConkie, even though they are often the first to declare some of his writings "personal opinion". Of course, you might be different and swallow his teachings whole, I suppose. Thanks for the reference, anyway.

In any case, I believe that your assumption that non-religious people have a weaker or no moral code is rather misguided.
"reason and religion are friends and allies" - Mitt Romney
_charity
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Post by _charity »

Zoidberg wrote:
Okay, what about living people today that can have their calling and election made sure? Don't those people have to be LDS, since you obviously believe that all the ordinances of the Gospel are only available in the LDS church? Everyone else may be heading toward the heavenly organization, but what organization are they currently in?

Anyone who has his/her calling and election made sure are LDS. Anyone who is "headed toward" the Church of the Lamb, even though they may be in other earthly organizaitons. If they are fighting the truth, they are of the church of the devil.


Define "taking people down with him". How many people actually actively try to proselytize against the Church using the same door-to-door tactics as it does? Not many that I know of.

"Taking people down with him" is people who try to destroy the faith of others. It doesn't have to be door to door. There are DVD's. Did you hear what happend with the "Jesus vs Joseph" DVD? The distributors were given specific isntructions to go to LDS homes while they were not there, hang a little baggie containing the DVD and rushing back to their vans so they wouldn't encounter any LDS. Polygamy Porter has declared his intention. Sethbag, pretty much, too.
[


Oh please. Is your opinion of my intelligence really so low? I just find it rather amusing that a church started by someone who very much indulged himself sexually, as well as later prophets, is now denying people not only sexual gratification of any kind, but also being affectionate in a non-sexual way with people they are attracted to.

I will leave your accusations against the prophets alone sinceit is obviously a blend of presentism, a Biblical double standard and a porjection of your own repressed sexual desires on others.

My opinion of your intelligence will really sink if I believe you think homosexuals are being affectionate in a non-sexual way! This is the perfect place for a ROFL smiley if this board had smilies.


A person who has homosexual attractions does not have to act them out. Just as a married man may feel attracted to someone not his wife. He needs to deal with those feelings, but he will still be a member in good standing if he just keeps his feelings to himself, and doesn't proposition the person he is attracted to. When you understand this difference you will see why holding your breath for a change in Church doctrine to accept homosexual BEHAVIOR is not a good idea.


I was referring more to trying to interfere with non-LDS people's business and imposing LDS doctrinal mentality on them. Incidentally, I also think that gay people will be able to marry in the temple within my lifetime. You might be spared the sight of it, though, since there are a few decades of age difference between us, it seems.

ROFL!!!!!

So most people belong to the church of the devil since they might be involved with these organizations in one way or the other, especially the NEA and publishers?

To the extent that they are involved, yes they are. You only asked for homosexual organizations, but I can add a bunch of others. NARL, Planned Parenthood (the part that supports abortion), NAMBLA, producers and distributors of pornography. Just to name a few.


I'm just waiting for you to realize how little sense you are making. First you are talking about accepting "people with homosexual attractions", then turn around and condemn "pro-homosexual" organizations like PFLAG. Do you think everyone in PFLAG has a family member who is having gay sex left and right? Some of them don't, they just come out of the closet. Are you suggesting that it's okay to be gay as long as you not only lead a life of complete abstinence from physical affection with members of the sex you are attracted to, but also stay in the closet? I suppose lying about why you are not getting married and dodging the commandment to start multiplying and replenishing the Earth is justified in this case.

Oh, pu-leeze. Abstinence is required of many people. Chastity is one of the most important virtues. I thought you would have understood that. You should go to the LDS.org and read Elder Holland's talk on same sex attraction. You would learn something.


I suppose going and paying tutition to any college that doesn't kick out people who have gay sex would also constitute membership in the church of the devil. Boy, you really can't be too careful these days. Better follow the example of Colorado City and move to an isolated compound.

That is pretty over the top.

charity wrote:Titus 1:15-16 "Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience [light of Christ]is defiled. They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate."

The identification of the light of Christ as being synomomous with the conscience is found in Mormon Doctrine p. 157.


It's interesting how apologists are not above quoting McConkie, even though they are often the first to declare some of his writings "personal opinion". Of course, you might be different and swallow his teachings whole, I suppose. Thanks for the reference, anyway.

With the spirit of discernment we can tell which is which. Don't you want to address what Titus had to say about it?

In any case, I believe that your assumption that non-religious people have a weaker or no moral code is rather misguided.

I suppose it depends on how lax you are willing to allow the definition of "moral code" to become. If you don't think abortion is a crime, then it isn't immoral to engage in it. If single people having sex isn't immoral in your view, then a moral prohibition and the obligation to live it doesn't even come up on your radar screen. Add in pornorgraphy, etc. Marital fidelity is corrleated with strength of religious belief. Abortion is also found in much higher incidence in non-religious or non-practicing religious populations.

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Post by _dartagnan »

Charity you never did explain how you justify reinterpreting this scripture in a way that the early LDS never understood it. All other Churches are of the devil according to the Book of Mormon and according to the early LDS prophets, not just those who attack the LDS Church. Why do you keep reiterating this falsehood?

Oh yea, confirmation bias.
“All knowledge of reality starts from experience and ends in it...Propositions arrived at by purely logical means are completely empty as regards reality." - Albert Einstein
_charity
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Post by _charity »

dartagnan wrote:Charity you never did explain how you justify reinterpreting this scripture in a way that the early LDS never understood it. All other Churches are of the devil according to the Book of Mormon and according to the early LDS prophets, not just those who attack the LDS Church. Why do you keep reiterating this falsehood?

Oh yea, confirmation bias.


And why do you think that every one starts out with a perfect knowledge? Sometimes cultural traditions take a while to die out. It was so bad with the Children of Israel they had to wander in the wilderness for 40 years until the older generation all died, except for Joshua.

There is doctrine, and there is the understanding of it. We are led by prophets today. Prophets didn't end with Joseph Smith, or even Brigham Young.

I read once on "another" board, that one of the distinguishing characteristics of ex-mo's is a rigidness also charactieristc of fundamentals. If someone ever said it, it must be so and can't be changed. If you look back to the First Vision, Joseph said Christ used the word "creeds" and the "professors" of those creeds. He never said everybody who belongs to any formal church organization is of the devil.
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Post by _karl61 »

charity wrote:
dartagnan wrote:Charity you never did explain how you justify reinterpreting this scripture in a way that the early LDS never understood it. All other Churches are of the devil according to the Book of Mormon and according to the early LDS prophets, not just those who attack the LDS Church. Why do you keep reiterating this falsehood?

Oh yea, confirmation bias.


And why do you think that every one starts out with a perfect knowledge? Sometimes cultural traditions take a while to die out. It was so bad with the Children of Israel they had to wander in the wilderness for 40 years until the older generation all died, except for Joshua.

There is doctrine, and there is the understanding of it. We are led by prophets today. Prophets didn't end with Joseph Smith, or even Brigham Young.

I read once on "another" board, that one of the distinguishing characteristics of ex-mo's is a rigidness also charactieristc of fundamentals. If someone ever said it, it must be so and can't be changed. If you look back to the First Vision, Joseph said Christ used the word "creeds" and the "professors" of those creeds. He never said everybody who belongs to any formal church organization is of the devil.


But prophet, seer and revelator Bruc R. McConkie did? If you are a leader of the Church of the Great Whore then you are closer to the devil as you go up the latter.
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_charity
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Post by _charity »

thestyleguy wrote:
But prophet, seer and revelator Bruc R. McConkie did? If you are a leader of the Church of the Great Whore then you are closer to the devil as you go up the latter.


The latter?

Elder McConkie was very strict in his defintions. He was also called down on that.Oh, yes another characteristic of ex- and anti-mo's is that they think people are infallible. LDS don't think such a fallacy.
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Post by _dartagnan »

Here we see your reasoning department shut down completely again as you offer ridiculous rationale as a means to make yourself feel good.

Sometimes cultural traditions take a while to die out. It was so bad with the Children of Israel they had to wander in the wilderness for 40 years until the older generation all died, except for Joshua.


This isn’t a cultural tradition.

There is doctrine, and there is the understanding of it. We are led by prophets today. Prophets didn't end with Joseph Smith, or even Brigham Young.


No the Church began with Joseph Smith and Brigham Young. Now you’re telling me their understanding of the verse should be flipped on its head because you think it is time that “tradition” died out? What gives you that kind of authority?

If you look back to the First Vision, Joseph said Christ used the word "creeds" and the "professors" of those creeds. He never said everybody who belongs to any formal church organization is of the devil.


That is what this verse says. Stop trying to create another straw man. Nobody is basing this belief on their comments about creeds. But this wouldn’t give you any wiggle room either since Brigham Young distinguished between the Christian world and Mormonism, regularly calling the former the worst things imaginable.


by the way, styleguy, McConkie was not a prophet.
“All knowledge of reality starts from experience and ends in it...Propositions arrived at by purely logical means are completely empty as regards reality." - Albert Einstein
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