Charity's view of how a prophet receives revelation

[_Some Schmo]

I feel great love in my heart for charity. There aren't that many people willing to repetitively play the fool for everyone else's entertainment while thinking they're actually writing intelligent things... and she does it for free!

Thanks charity. It's like xmas every day with you here.

...

Loved all your posts in this thread, guy sajer (for the opposite reason I enjoy charity's, I feel compelled to point out, despite suspecting you knew that already). You crack me up, man.

I wonder how Joe asked god about tithing... "Hey god, how can I finance this scam... er... restored church of yours?"

[_ozemc]

Oh c'mon .... you NEVER lie?

Not even to the policeman who asks you if you know how fast you were going?

Or how about that homeless person you see on the street everyday, who asks you for money everyday? Do you always give them money out of your pocket? Or do you say "Sorry, I don't have anything today."

I just don't beleive that anyone can say they never lie.

The last time I goit stopped for speeding, I told the officer the truth. I hadn't noticed my speed because I was listening to an interview on the radio with Charlton Heston. The truth. (Yes, it has been a few years since that happened.) The officer gave me a warning.

I don't see any homeless people in my daily life. I leave my house two days a week, three days counting Sunday and where I go there are no homeless people. When I get solicitation calls I tell the solicotrs I don't care to donate to their cause, which is the truth.

Next question?

Oh please, don't sound uneducated.

Those were examples, Charity. I'm sure you can find some area in your life where you've told a lie. If not, maybe you're lying to yourself, hmmm?

[_ozemc]

I just don't beleive that anyone can say they never lie.

Yeah, not even Abraham, Nephi, or even *GASP* GOD!

Ok, depends on your definition of lie, I suppose. God can be quite dishonest and deceitful. Some friends and I detailed a thread once and counted up more deceit on the side of God than of Satan (Satan was quite honest most of the time...God appeared to be the Father of lies as he had MORE than Satan did). Making Adam think he'd die "In the VERY DAY" he ate the fruit. Deceiving us into believing that there's a such thing as punishment with no end because he knew it would work upon the hearts of man to His glory (see D&C 19), and thus He was justified in tricking us (lying/deceiving us) into thinking that it's possible we could be damned forever and never escape prison. So was he lying when he said there's a such thing as Eternal damnation, or what He lying in D&C 19? Either way, even God lies/deceives, etc. Then there's the cases where God told someone to lie or deceive another, like he did with telling Abraham to lie about his wife. What about lying to Abraham telling him that He wanted Abraham to KILL his son? God didn't actually want Abraham to kill his own son, he was just lying to test Abraham and see if he would actually go through with it. What about the promises God made to Isaiah and David and others that never happened or came true? Is God a liar or incompetent? We could list MANY examples of this...but it's odd how much emphasis there is on honesty and integrity and the scriptures are rife with righteous deceit...so it's apparently not ALWAYS a bad thing. Of course, if God is willing to deceive us about Eternal Damnation, then what else has he told us that's not true simply because it makes us act the way we should? Perhaps someone could start a new thread on this matter before we thread-jack too much...I just wanted to point out that EVEN GOD LIES, as the subject was brought up by someone else...

Actually, I think it would depend on your definition of God.

The God that I am in awe of does not roam the pages of ancient books by people that sacrificed animals to appease Him.

As I was watching on the History Channel last night, gamma ray bursts shine so brightly that the light they produce can be seen across billions of light years and shine hundreds of times brighter than a typical supernova and about a million trillion times as bright as the Sun, making them briefly the brightest source of cosmic gamma-ray photons in the observable Universe. (http://imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/scien ... ursts.html)

There is a star, in our galaxy, called VV Cephei, that is so big, if it were in place of the sun, it would be almost to the orbit of Saturn.

From Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VV_Cephei)
VV Cephei A, the supergiant, is one of the largest stars known, and believed the second largest star in this galaxy. It is of spectral type M2 and is approximately 1,600–1,900 times the Sun's diameter. If placed in our solar system, the binary system would extend past the orbit of Jupiter and approach that of Saturn. VV Cephei is 275,000-575,000 times more luminous than the Sun. As is true for many red supergiants, a stellar wind flows off the system at a velocity of approximately 25 kilometers per second.[1] VV Cephei A's mass estimated from its orbital motion is about 100 solar masses, but its luminosity suggests a mass 25-40 solar masses.

The God I worship is the one to whom this sort of stuff is just a thought.

[_ozemc]

for what it's worth, here's a link to a picture of that star compared to ours:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Sun_ ... phei_A.svg

[_harmony]

Thanks Charity. However, it appears to me that your response is simply a repetion of what I imagine Tide, and most posters are well aware of. Tide was, as many here, a LDS missionary.

What you do not seem to grasp: You reference "God" data that others--few or many--have left behind as mythological legend that served to socialize a primitive nomadic tribe.

Quite successfully as a matter of fact, which does not mean it was an assertion of truth. It was simply based on principles of authoritarianism using fear, guilt, demeaning individual self-confidence and personal worthiness to establish their tribal culture.

Stating Tide is "blasphemous" demonstrates your own, and your 'teachers', ignorance and misconception of "God". Most "damning" as it "stops" you and they in their/your proverbial, "tracks". As the teacher from Nazareth told the hypocrical, self-righteous Pharasees and the Jewish hiearchy of his time, "...you don't know "God"...you've become a den of theives..." "...you kick against the truth..."

Respectfully Charity, have you ever considered your self, and Mormonism among other persuasions, from that perspective? I think if you read Tide's "signature" you will see he has resolved, accomodated and enjoys LDSism for exactly what it is. Not for what it professes to be.

IMSCO, the Bible "God", as theologically presented, has not lead to the truths of discovery, and 'revelation' upon which humanity has advanced. To the contrary, the radical believers who influenced religious thought and behavior, have tended to close minds to most else but their edicts and Institutional Order

Yes Charity, their is a "God". Nondenominational, nonsectarian, nonreligious, nameless, without favourites, does not covenant with "special folks", makes no promises of Heaven or Hell, completely objective.

That "God" holds out "blessings" to the wise, and lucky, who unearth or stumble upon, universal laws that cannot be contravened. Some have said, "...He's a "God" of love..." I understand "God" to be of order-and-grace. "...rain, sun, resources to all..." As much as man will abide "God".

When there might appear to be a "God intervention", it is simply an application of the law upon which that "intervention" is based. We have many "laws" to yet understand. Be assured, what might be considered supernarural to the superstitious and ignorant, are indeed natural and Universal. There is no "Secret".

Possibly you have thought/heard these things before?? Be that as it may. However, they are my personal convictions...

"Walk a mile in my shoes."?? 'Climb my mountain!' :-) Warm regards, Roger

Roger, charity will never concede that you are even in the ballpark, let alone that you're right. To do so, she'd have to realize that Joseph lied, repeatedly, over the pulpit, and face to face. That is impossible for her. She places her trust in a man named Joseph.

[_Roger Morrison]

Hi Charity, you say:

So I should only post if I have some kind of new idea?

Of course not. Just give more thought about what you say to whom, is all i'm suggesting.

I understand quite well that others have worked around their erroneous ideas in their own minds until they have come up with the man made conclusion that God of the Old Testament is just a myth. This reliance on secular concepts doesn't make them right.

Possibly not. They do however make more sense, and are more acceptable to those "others". To each their own, eh?

Of course, we don't really "know" God in our limited mortal state. But we certainly know what He isn't. And He isn't a liar. To say He is blasphemous.

Thanks for that admission. Certainly "God" is not a liar. BUT, self appointed representatives of "God" who authored the Bible, humans as they were, engaged in untruths and deceit throughout the book. As well, one of the leading men, Abraham, lied whenever it was expedient for him to do so. Mustn't forget mother Saraha. Both supposedly lying at the direction of "God"?? I don't think so.

"Blasphemous?" Only in the minds of those conditioned to believe so. Ancient termonology used to defame, or frighten supressed ignorants. Mostly what everyone was, back then. None need watch-out for "God". Doesn't it seem silly to even consider the idea, defending "God" or "His" reputation??

I joined the Church as an adult. I considered "Mormonism" very carefully before I joined. So please don't act as though I am some nitwit who never gave a thought to the matter.

Me too. Young family, 1956. Didn't mean to "nitwit" You. I'm glad you're happy with your choice. Me too...

Your "God" may be all those things to you. But God, our Heavenly Father, who loves all His children, nevertheless does make covenenta, and makes promises to us, dependent upon our obedience.

In your opinion. No better, or worse, than mine. Or, anyone elses. Simply what you believe. "...dependent upon ... obedience..." is correct in all sciences, h2o and the rest of it. However, one must be careful of what/who they are obedient to outside of the sciences.

""I agree that as we apply universal laws, we obtain the results of that obedience. And God operates according to law. When we see something as "miracles" it is because of the operation of laws we don't understand.

Again, please don't be so condescending."" (Goofed on the Quote thing :o)

RM: Nice to agree on something ;-) Didn't mean to, "be so condescending". Whose perfect, eh? Warm regards, Roger, Over-&-out :-)