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_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

Yes, I was correct. It's this reference:

http://books.google.com/books?id=tfUGeB ... ns&source=
web&ots=fgCOKY7ncX&sig=XA2goBoYAZ7_Z65EyGj6-hr1Knw#PPA263,M1

Henry C. Mercer (1896), who explored the cave and dug 2 pits in Chamber 3 in 1895, found similar ceramic and nonceramic layers. His attempt to locate preceramic artifacts with extinct fauna in association with Loltun or other nearby caves was unsuccessful. Some skeletal remains dubiously identified as Ursus (bear) were found in Loltun in a ceramic layer. Mercer reported the presence of Equus (horse) teeth and bones on the surface of three different caves. Although similar to the extinct horse Equus Occidentalis, the remains were identified as modern horse.


So forget the Mercer bones, they are debunked.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

Well I suggest you get schmidt then because that's where your gripe is.


You're not reading my links, are you?

Schmidt is the one of the sources who provided the Pleistocene dating.

http://books.google.com/books?id=tfUGeB ... =PA285&dq=
loltun+caves+schmidt&source=web&ots=fgCOKY9s9U&sig=l0LqJbOb9ghuDlWNnPol65uCnW8

Loltun Cave is found at 40m. elevation in the southeastern portion of the state of Yucatan., 7 m. south of Oxkutzcab. Several publications about the studies undertaken on the remains from this cave are available, including Hatt and his collaborators (Hatt et al 1953) and by personnel of the National Institute of Anthropology and History (Velazquez 1980, Alvarez 1982, Alvarez and Polaco 1982, Alvarez and Arroyo-Cabrales and Alvarez 1990, Pollaco et al 1998, see also Chapter 10 of this volume). The known stratigraphy contains sixteen levels; sediments from levels VII to XVI are Pleistocene in age.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_Zakuska
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Posts: 215
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2007 7:58 am

Post by _Zakuska »

Very good.. which... where all surface finds. It would be nice if they provided carbon dating for those. Now you have to deal with schmidt. Which dug the area in 1988 and carbon dated the charcoal. Which the horse bones where found in.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Jan 16, 2008 1:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

Very good.. which... where all surface finds. It would be nice if they provided carbon dating for those.


Now you have to deal with schmidt. Which dug the area in 1988 and carbon dated the charcoal.


We cross posted. Schmidt's dating is PLEISTOCENE.

I'm telling you, Zak. You must verify ALL of Sorenson's claims. I have seen him completely distort sources as well as use findings dating from the wrong period to supposedly support his claims. I don't know if he's deliberately dishonest, or just incompetent, but it's one of the two.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_Zakuska
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Posts: 215
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2007 7:58 am

Post by _Zakuska »

Schmidt's dating is PLEISTOCENE


CFR. I was unaware the Schmidt dated the bones. He did date the carcoal.
_Zakuska
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Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2007 7:58 am

Post by _Zakuska »

beastie wrote:
Well I suggest you get schmidt then because that's where your gripe is.


You're not reading my links, are you?

Schmidt is the one of the sources who provided the Pleistocene dating.

http://books.google.com/books?id=tfUGeB ... =PA285&dq=
loltun+caves+schmidt&source=web&ots=fgCOKY9s9U&sig=l0LqJbOb9ghuDlWNnPol65uCnW8

Loltun Cave is found at 40m. elevation in the southeastern portion of the state of Yucatan., 7 m. south of Oxkutzcab. Several publications about the studies undertaken on the remains from this cave are available, including Hatt and his collaborators (Hatt et al 1953) and by personnel of the National Institute of Anthropology and History (Velazquez 1980, Alvarez 1982, Alvarez and Polaco 1982, Alvarez and Arroyo-Cabrales and Alvarez 1990, Pollaco et al 1998, see also Chapter 10 of this volume). The known stratigraphy contains sixteen levels; sediments from levels VII to XVI are Pleistocene in age.


The horse bones where above level VII not bellow it. ;)

Significantly, forty-four fragments of horse remains were found in the layers VII, VI, V, and II—above all in association with pottery. But the earliest Maya ceramics in the region date no earlier than 900–400 BC.67 Archaeologist Peter Schmidt notes,
_beastie
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Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2006 2:26 am

Post by _beastie »

CFR. I was unaware the Schmidt dated the bones. He did date the carcoal.


Zak,

I didn't say he dated the BONES. I said the accepted dating, including Schmidt's, for Level VII is PLEISTOCENE.

The only reference you can find for horse bones "above" level VII is Sorenson's summary of an article neither one of us have access to.

The article I cited a few posts ago specifically stated that the attempts to link extinct animals to ceramic levels in the Loltun caves were unsuccessful.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_Zakuska
_Emeritus
Posts: 215
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2007 7:58 am

Post by _Zakuska »

Unsuccessful or swept under the rug? We need the Schmidt article or a carbon date.
_Zakuska
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Posts: 215
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2007 7:58 am

Post by _Zakuska »

beastie wrote:
CFR. I was unaware the Schmidt dated the bones. He did date the carcoal.


Zak,

I didn't say he dated the BONES. I said the accepted dating, including Schmidt's, for Level VII is PLEISTOCENE.

The only reference you can find for horse bones "above" level VII is Sorenson's summary of an article neither one of us have access to.

The article I cited a few posts ago specifically stated that the attempts to link extinct animals to ceramic levels in the Loltun caves were unsuccessful.


Got a page number?

Your link cuts off right when we hit the most recent information on these caves. 1970-1980 and it starts talking about the spanish digging.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Jan 16, 2008 2:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
_CaliforniaKid
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Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2007 8:47 am

Post by _CaliforniaKid »

beastie wrote:Yes, I was correct. It's this reference:

http://books.google.com/books?id=tfUGeB ... ns&source=
web&ots=fgCOKY7ncX&sig=XA2goBoYAZ7_Z65EyGj6-hr1Knw#PPA263,M1

Henry C. Mercer (1896), who explored the cave and dug 2 pits in Chamber 3 in 1895, found similar ceramic and nonceramic layers. His attempt to locate preceramic artifacts with extinct fauna in association with Loltun or other nearby caves was unsuccessful. Some skeletal remains dubiously identified as Ursus (bear) were found in Loltun in a ceramic layer. Mercer reported the presence of Equus (horse) teeth and bones on the surface of three different caves. Although similar to the extinct horse Equus Occidentalis, the remains were identified as modern horse.


So forget the Mercer bones, they are debunked.


Good find!
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