Cognitive Dissonance -- It Sucks

[_charity]

And LDS, me, you any of them, cannot prove a positive through the subjective thing LDS call a testimony.

Absolutely true,

Allegedly the Holy Ghost can warn us of danger and other pitfalls as well as give us a stupor of thought that is a no answer. Allegedly the Holy Ghost can tell me a decision I have made say on a career choice is the wrong decision so the Holy Ghost can confirm a negative. You are simply wrong there. But the main point is the so called witness of the Holy Ghost is simply subjective and that is it. It cannot hbe used to prove anything either way.

Warning is not the same as confirming.

Stupor of thought is a lack, not a confirmation of a negative.

The way the Holy Ghost would tell you that your career choice was wrong would be the stupor of thought when you asked if it was the right choice.

I agree that the witness of the Holy Ghost is subjective. It is entirely internal to the person, which can never be "proven": to anyone else. If while you are speaking, the Holy Ghost confirms to me that you are speaking the truth, then I can KNOW that you were, but again, that is subjective. Entirely internal.

charity wrote:
The Holy Ghost confirms truth. He doesn't confirm error.


What about all the times the Holy Ghost confirmed the truth of Paul H. Dunn's stories?

The Holy Ghost confirmed the truth which was being illustrated by the story, not the story itself. We can receive a testimony by the Holy Ghost that one of Jesus' parables was the truth, without believing that there was actually a prodigal son who ended up living in a pig sty eating corn cobs.

[_Some Schmo]

The Holy Ghost confirmed the truth which was being illustrated by the story, not the story itself.

Next week, on Reality According to Charity, we'll hear how sitting on a unicorn's horn and rotating isn't really bestiality as long as the horn is no longer attached...

*rolls eyes*

[_the road to hana]

The Holy Ghost confirmed the truth which was being illustrated by the story, not the story itself.

So then the Holy Ghost could maybe be confirming "gospel truths" without necessarily confirming the truthfulness of the church itself?

The Holy Ghost could maybe be confirming general "truths" in the Book of Mormon without necessarily confirming the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon itself?

[_charity]

So then the Holy Ghost could maybe be confirming "gospel truths" without necessarily confirming the truthfulness of the church itself?

The Holy Ghost could maybe be confirming general "truths" in the Book of Mormon without necessarily confirming the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon itself?

That is nice, hana. You are definitately not one of the fish in the barrel! :)

So, say, just for the sake of argument, that this oculd be true, and there a "truths" in the Book of Mormon even if it was a work of fiction. Then you are still obligated to live the truths from it since they were testified to by the Holy Ghost. Oops. Caught you there.

[_antishock8]

Fortunately, I'm living in Europe. We are forward by 7-8 hrs in time zone, and two hundred years forward in thinking. I'm sorry, again and again.

Don't you mean you live in Eurabia? Eurabian progressivism and self-denial about impending dhimmitude is stunning. Our kettle may be black, but so is your pot... And it's very mouthy.

[_Jason Bourne]

And LDS, me, you any of them, cannot prove a positive through the subjective thing LDS call a testimony.

Absolutely true,

Ok so far.

Allegedly the Holy Ghost can warn us of danger and other pitfalls as well as give us a stupor of thought that is a no answer. Allegedly the Holy Ghost can tell me a decision I have made say on a career choice is the wrong decision so the Holy Ghost can confirm a negative. You are simply wrong there. But the main point is the so called witness of the Holy Ghost is simply subjective and that is it. It cannot hbe used to prove anything either way.

Warning is not the same as confirming.

Prehaps. But you said the HG only reveals truth or confirms it. This is one of many things the HG supposedly does that is different from what you proposed.

Stupor of thought is a lack, not a confirmation of a negative.

The way the Holy Ghost would tell you that your career choice was wrong would be the stupor of thought when you asked if it was the right choice.

This certainly is the confirmation of a negative. I think I should take the job. The HG tells me in whatever way the HG does it that I should not. This is a negative answer.

I agree that the witness of the Holy Ghost is subjective. It is entirely internal to the person, which can never be "proven": to anyone else. If while you are speaking, the Holy Ghost confirms to me that you are speaking the truth, then I can KNOW that you were, but again, that is subjective. Entirely internal.

And the HG can tell you that when someone says is hooey. You know, this gift called discernment. The idea that the HG cannot confirm anything but truth is a positive confirmation sort of way is your own contrivance Charity. I have never heard such a thing taught by and LDS leader nor in the scripture. Please corret me from those sources and not from your own apologetic a priori.

[_BishopRic]

The Holy Ghost confirmed the truth which was being illustrated by the story, not the story itself. We can receive a testimony by the Holy Ghost that one of Jesus' parables was the truth, without believing that there was actually a prodigal son who ended up living in a pig sty eating corn cobs.

Charity, keeping up with your spin is dizzying!

[_Doctor Steuss]

Cognitive dissonance rocks. It’s when it leaves that sucks.

[_antishock8]

Because, even in science, you can't prove a negative.

That's a lie.

The earth is NOT a square. <-This can be proved through the scientific method of observation, data retrieval, and documentation.

Negative just proved. Also, a negative is proved until proof is provided. For example, there are NO leprechauns. It's proved until it is disproved through the scientific method, data retrieval, and documentation.

[_charity]

Allegedly the Holy Ghost can warn us of danger and other pitfalls as well as give us a stupor of thought that is a no answer. Allegedly the Holy Ghost can tell me a decision I have made say on a career choice is the wrong decision so the Holy Ghost can confirm a negative. You are simply wrong there. But the main point is the so called witness of the Holy Ghost is simply subjective and that is it. It cannot hbe used to prove anything either way.

By subjective I mean that only the person involved can experience it. But when I experience it, it is proof. I understand that someone else who has not experienced it may not accept that. I accept that others have had a witness to something that I haven't. And there have been times when my experience has been exactly what others describe as happening at the same time. I was introduced to President Kimball at the dedication o the Seattle Temple, as the organist who had played for the dedication. The choir director was with me at the time. When we were speaking of the experience later, we both had had unmistakeable witness that he was a prophet. Simultaneously.

Prehaps. But you said the HG only reveals truth or confirms it. This is one of many things the HG supposedly does that is different from what you proposed.

Sorry to have not spoken clearly. I was trying to limit the discussion to manifestations of truth as gifts of the Spirit. The Spirit also comforts, the Spirit also gives joy. These are not matters of truth or discernment.

This [stupor of thought] certainly is the confirmation of a negative. I think I should take the job. The HG tells me in whatever way the HG does it that I should not. This is a negative answer.

I can see what you mean. But what I meant was that you won't get a "burning in the bosom" that something is wrong. (By burning in the bosom I mean that in a generic sense as a manifestation of truth.) There is no comparable manifestation to the one for truth to the one for error. Stupor of thought is a negative state, not a positive one.

I agree that the witness of the Holy Ghost is subjective. It is entirely internal to the person, which can never be "proven": to anyone else. If while you are speaking, the Holy Ghost confirms to me that you are speaking the truth, then I can KNOW that you were, but again, that is subjective. Entirely internal.

And the HG can tell you that when someone says is hooey. You know, this gift called discernment. The idea that the HG cannot confirm anything but truth is a positive confirmation sort of way is your own contrivance Charity. I have never heard such a thing taught by and LDS leader nor in the scripture. Please corret me from those sources and not from your own apologetic a priori.

I could be wrong, but my experience with the witness of the Holy Ghost, my study of the scriptures regarding gifts of the Spirit leads me to believe that what I said is correct.