MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new MMM book

[_Jason Bourne]

Why would I read Bushman's book when I have already read Palmer's? Besides that, unlike you, I have no need to believe in Mormonism.

I think the quality of the two are certainly not similar. But irrespective you should read that which you act like you know something about. It is clearer and clearer you don't. And if you pan the book you should know what it in it. And I really don't think Bushman's book is designed to make you believe. But really Boaz you are Archie Bunker are two peas in a pod. Why educate yourself man? You know what you know in about the same way the member bearing testimony that you mock knows.

I am sure however this will shoot right past you.

Not only have I read his book, I know him personally and have met with him on several occasions. in my opinion, he is an upstanding man with nothing but the conviction for truth in his heart

I am sure Grant Palmer is a fine fellow. I have nothing against him and wonder why you dragged him in. But you cannot see into his heart anymore than you can Dan Peterson's or mine.

[_Boaz & Lidia]

Dan, did you overlook the fact that these three historians are not only LDS, but WORK FOR LDS Inc?

You're working your way up to a classic ad hominem fallacy, I suppose, but, even though I have no expectation that you'll acknowledge the point, I have to repeat that the principal -- and far and away the best -- method for evaluating a book is carefully to read the book.

I don't think that this idea is really very controversial among normal people.

Why would I read this book? I have no need to believe in Mormonism. Besides, I already know who did it.

Now this is worthy of a sig line.

So B&S,.....I mean B&L, who did it and how do you know? Evidence please.

Look Jas, I do not have the explicit need to believe in Mormonism. Perhaps you do. You need to read this as you are the one who still believes and practices the doctrines that helped build that human slaughterhouse at Mountain Meadows.

I believe in Mormon theology as much as I believe in Buddhism, Islam, Christianity, or any other crackpot religion. None.

I know who slaughtered these innocent hardworking American citizens. Mormons did, and Mormonism set the stage for them to do it. Do you agree that Brigham and Co. did attempt to hide it and obfuscated the fact gathering?

[_Daniel Peterson]

To clarify, does Mr. Turley hold a masters or doctorate in history?

Not to my knowledge.

To clarify, neither did Leonard Arrington, Juanita Brooks, or Fawn Brodie. Neither does Will Bagley.

I know that in March of 2003, Yale Divinity School held a conference on Joseph Smith.

To be more precise, a conference was held at Yale Divinity School for which the Divinity School and what is now the Maxwell Institute at BYU were co-sponsors. And the subject wasn't Joseph Smith, as such, but Mormon philosophy and theology. (In fact, the Society for Mormon Philosophy and Theology was founded in a meeting immediately after the close of the conference.)

What a spectacular diversion, by the way!

But Yale’s prestige didn’t protect it when the LDS Church threatened to withhold BYUs funding of the conference if Dr. Quinn were to participate. Prestige notwithstanding, the Church’s dollars spoke and Yale caved in and Dr. Quinn, ironically a Yale graduate, was excluded from the conference.

To be more accurate, one of the conference co-sponsors, which is now known as the Maxwell Institute, did not support a proposal to have Mike Quinn present a paper at the conference.

So I have to wonder how much of a parallel there is between Church dollars influencing the Yale conference and Church dollars influencing Oxford University Press.

It's one thing for one of the co-sponsors of a conference to exercise its legitimate right to influence the design of the conference, and quite another for a Church to bribe the most prestigious academic press in the English-speaking world into publishing a book that will bring shame and disrepute upon the press.

And then there's the fact that your wildly speculative conspiracy theory is accompanied by not a shred of supporting evidence. It springs from the clear blue sky.

Besides the “thousands, if not millions of dollars” spent by the Church on research, I wonder how much the Church paid directly or indirectly to Oxford University Press for the publication of Massacre at Mountain Meadows.

Precisely none, would be my guess.

[_Daniel Peterson]

On a serious note, the intensity of the scorn with which you dismiss my suggestions, suggests you may well see merit in them, but just haven't had time to think up a substantive rebuttal.

You flatter yourself.

I think they're ridiculous.

That's all.

This is one of the classic apologetic responses over at MADB. Critics always know when they've scored a hit when the apologists respond with scorn and the stronger the scorn the stronger the hit.

That's a pretty bizarre method of evaluating your own arguments: "The sillier my opponents think my comments are, the more correct they must be!"

[_Daniel Peterson]

Now, let’s look at the simple facts.

How about looking at the book?!?!?!?!?

[_msharmony]

What I want to know is... where did the millions that funded this project come from? Tithing?

[_Jason Bourne]

Look Jas, I do not have the explicit need to believe in Mormonism.

That is not the point. Can you really miss it that badly?

Perhaps you do.

Perhaps. Perhaps not.

You need to read this as you are the one who still believes and practices the doctrines that helped build that human slaughterhouse at Mountain Meadows.

You see this is sheer stupidity. There are a number of reasons why I read items about LDS history. Sure one is that I have been an avid believer all my life that as you know has re-examined the religion that has been a huge part of my life. Another is I am highly interested in history and because of my investment in it, LDS history. But I have read plenty pro and con for these reasons and other. I will read this book but not for pure substantiation of anything per say. I want to see what they have to say about it.

Unlike you and Beastie and others here I will reach my verdict about it AFTER I read the book. I imagine that there will be some bias because nobosy is totally unbiased. I don't expect them to be.

I believe in Mormon theology as much as I believe in Buddhism, Islam, Christianity, or any other crackpot religion. None.

Yep. But you really should know more about that which you love to hate. You buy into the total negative side of the LDS Church as much as you think hard core TBMs do. You are, as noted before. As much and a believer in unbelief as those you mock and scorn. You are not unlike many who defend at all costs and who you make fun of here.

I know who slaughtered these innocent hardworking American citizens.

I am sure these were just normal folk who had strengths and weaknesses like any other human being. I am feel very sad about what happened to them. As sad as I do about those LDS people murdered at Haun's Mill. I do not condone either event and never have.

Mormons did,

Yep. Some people who were Mormons killed these people. I agree with that.

and Mormonism set the stage for them to do it.

I think some things in Mormonism help set the stage. I also thing the abuse that the Saints had gone through in other areas helped set the stage. The cold blooded murder of their prophet help set the stage. The US and its president helped set the stage by sending an army to Utah. Brigham Young and some of his over the top rhetoric help set the stage.

Do you agree that Brigham and Co. did attempt to hide it and obfuscated the fact gathering?

Yes. I do not agree with it. But I can understand why it may have happened.

See unlike you I don't think any man., religious leader or not, is beyond reproach. The Bible makes that pretty clear with its many stories of those in high position and calls falling flat on their face. And whether you believe the Bible or not is not the point either.

I do not think BY, based on what I have read so far about MMM, ordered the massacre. I do believe his rhetoric was one of many things that created the tinder box that was lit that led to MMM. And I hold those who did the deed as guilty as ever and believe that God will hold them accountable for the deeds.

Anyway, the whole point is that if you are going to pan a book you ought to read it first. Not for belief but so you don't look like a total incompetent and utter ass, which you do currently.

But hey if you want to come across and an ignorant fool more power to you man.

[_Jason Bourne]

What I want to know is... where did the millions that funded this project come from? Tithing?

Where is the documentation of the millions first?

[_Daniel Peterson]

What I want to know is... where did the millions that funded this project come from? Tithing?

Perhaps you should first ask whether there were "millions that funded this project."

[_msharmony]

What I want to know is... where did the millions that funded this project come from? Tithing?

Where is the documentation of the millions first?

Makes no difference to me if it's $10 or millions... where did it come from? Tithing?