The Mormon Apologist's Modus Operandi

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_EAllusion
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Re: The Mormon Apologist's Modus Operandi

Post by _EAllusion »

This old post from Nevo comes to mind here:

Well, let me hereby state for the record that I find certain aspects of Joseph Smith's conduct vis--vis the doctrine of plural marriage problematic. I am also quite willing to concede that he could be overbearing and coercive at times.

For example, on 21 February 1843 the Prophet told the Saints: "The building of the Nauvoo House [a hotel] is just as sacred in my view as the Temple. I want the Nauvoo House built. It must be built. Our salvation depends upon it" (quoted in Robert Bruce Flanders, Nauvoo: Kingdom on the Mississippi [Urbana and Chicago: University of Illinois Press, 1965], 186; italics mine).

Historian Robert Flanders noted:
Work on the Temple was pushed feverishly from the beginning, and the Saints were hounded and badgered to ever greater zeal in its behalf. The revelation commanding the Temple had stipulated a dire condition regarding its building: "I grant unto you a sufficient time to build a house unto me, and during this time your baptisms shall be acceptable unto me. But behold, at the end of this appointment, your baptisms for your dead shall not be acceptable to me [and] you shall be rejected as a church, with your dead, saith the Lord your God."

Just what the length of that "sufficient time" was, Smith did not say; but the threat was taken seriously. It was a constant goad and spur to greater effort. The Prophet urged the Temple on the people with rewards of great spiritual blessings to be received when it was done, of mysteries to be revealed, and of powers and gifts to be bestowed. An I. R. Tull, a resident of Pontoosuc, a village a few miles up the river, came to Nauvoo frequently to sell produce. He related a conversation with a Massachusetts man who had gathered to Nauvoo in hope that Smith could heal his blind eyes. "I asked him why the Prophet did not open his eyes. He replied that Joseph had informed him that he could not open his eyes until the Temple was finished"

In October 1841 the Prophet made another dramatic threat to speed the work on his two public houses. When the semiannual General Conference opened, "The President made some remarks on the inclemency of the weather, and the uncomfortable situation of the Saints with regard to a place of worship, and a place of public entertainment." The following day Smith, "by request of the Twelve Apostles, gave instructions on the doctrine of baptism for the dead, which were listened to with intense interest by the large assembly. He presented baptism for the dead as the only way that men can appear as saviours on Mount Zion." But at the conclusion of his discourse the Prophet announced: "There shall be no more baptisms for the dead, until the ordinance can be attended to in the Lord's House; and the church shall not hold another General Conference until they can meet in said house. For thus said the Lord!"

The conference adjourned sine die. The threat was not carried out; the font was ready for use the following month, and there continued to be conferences, though that of the following April was styled a "special" rather than a "general" conference. But the Prophet's threatened interdict was not without effect; it was repeated in communications to the Saints outside of Nauvoo and stood as an example of his vindictive zeal.

According to the original revelation, God might declare the "sufficient time" ended at any time. "The brethren seemed to vie with each other in their diligence," said Ebenezer Robinson, "as many of them feltif they failed to have the work accomplished by the time appointed, they lost not only their own souls' salvation, but also that of their dead friends, for whom they had been baptizedI confess that was too strong meat for me" Robinson reasoned that the baptism of the living could not be revoked and that the salvation of the dead could not rightly be made to depend on the performance or nonperformance of the living. "I came to the conclusion that the Lord did not give that revelation" (Flanders, 199-200).


http://pacumenispages.yuku.com/reply/12 ... ply-126971

I'm picking this example in part because it is relatively trivial. In this case, I think the favorable interpretation is some piously fraudulent behavior. Regardless, the point is that even a believer can accept that Smith was a pious fraud at times.
_why me
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Re: The Mormon Apologist's Modus Operandi

Post by _why me »

beastie wrote:
Once again, what could Joseph Smith have done that would have resolved his situation?

And, once again, Joseph Smith was very interested in defaming the witnesses when they strayed. This shows he was concerned about what they were saying. He wanted to discredit them immediately.

None ever fessed up to the fraud. And in that regard, it would not matter what they were saying. Once they fessed up to the fraud, all would fall like a house of cards. There would be nothing left.

And remember, those witnesses could have been talking up a storm without Joseph Smith's knowledge when he was languishing in prison. As the main fraudster I would expect nothing less.
Last edited by Guest on Tue Jul 28, 2009 3:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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_AlmaBound
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Re: The Mormon Apologist's Modus Operandi

Post by _AlmaBound »

why me wrote:I would never expect all 11 to keep their mouths shut.


I think there are implications within the book itself that gave them all reason to not spill the beans, were the truth about its origins and storyline to be known.

From this viewpoint, they kept their mouths shut out of self-preservation.
_why me
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Re: The Mormon Apologist's Modus Operandi

Post by _why me »

AlmaBound wrote:
I think there are implications within the book itself that gave them all reason to not spill the beans, were the truth about its origins and storyline to be known.

From this viewpoint, they kept their mouths shut out of self-preservation.


Hardly. They would have been famous...going on speaking tours....making some dough out of it. No one would judge them harshly. All christian groups would have rewarded them handsomely at that time.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world.
Joseph Smith


We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…”
Joseph Smith
_AlmaBound
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Re: The Mormon Apologist's Modus Operandi

Post by _AlmaBound »

why me wrote:Hardly. They would have been famous...going on speaking tours....making some dough out of it. No one would judge them harshly. All christian groups would have rewarded them handsomely at that time.


You're missing the point.

I think the witnesses are found within the book doing something that they cannot tell about without implicating themselves in something that would not go unpunished - in effect it serves as a sort of binding confessional.

They would be found just as guilty as Joseph in the coming forth of the book - making them co-conspirators - not to mention the implication of things that happened in the book itself.
_harmony
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Re: The Mormon Apologist's Modus Operandi

Post by _harmony »

AlmaBound wrote:
why me wrote:Hardly. They would have been famous...going on speaking tours....making some dough out of it. No one would judge them harshly. All christian groups would have rewarded them handsomely at that time.


You're missing the point.

I think the witnesses are found within the book doing something that they cannot tell about without implicating themselves in something that would not go unpunished - in effect it serves as a sort of binding confessional.

They would be found just as guilty as Joseph in the coming forth of the book - making them co-conspirators - not to mention the implication of things that happened in the book itself.


Not to mention the wrath of all those friends and family who had joined the church because of their "witness".
(Nevo, Jan 23) And the Melchizedek Priesthood may not have been restored until the summer of 1830, several months after the organization of the Church.
_Thama
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Re: The Mormon Apologist's Modus Operandi

Post by _Thama »

why me wrote:The point is that Joseph Smith showed signs of wavering in the face of such adversity. Also, we need to remember the 11 witnesses who certainly would have been in on the fraud. They said nothing but Joseph Smith would not know that. He languished in prison in very poor conditions. As a fraudster I would want to know just what those guys are now saying. wouldn't you? I would never expect all 11 to keep their mouths shut.

Why die when the gig could be up?


Most of the witnesses apostatized. The 8 would have been easy to fool for an accomplished conman, only the 3 would need have been "in on it". I would presume that they were afraid of the consequences, either legal (fraud) or extra-legal (retribution).
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_maklelan
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Re: The Mormon Apologist's Modus Operandi

Post by _maklelan »

Some Schmo wrote:I don't really buy the pious fraud idea either. I mean, he was a known conman.


When he was a teenager. You've never done something stupid as a teenager that you think would be more than a little unfair to be lashed to your adult life?

Some Schmo wrote:He told people he could find lost buried treasure using supernatural means!


And people testified in court that he succeeded.

Some Schmo wrote:It's just really easy to imagine that here's this guy who's scammed hundreds of people, slept with multiple women/girls, and sacrificed several people's lives; there was no way he was going to let the truth be known, no matter what the situation. He had to protect his house of cards. I'm sure he felt there was a lot less personal danger involved in maintaining the scam than letting the cat out of the bag.


So this is the new rationalization. He had to keep the lie going all the way to his death in order to avoid getting into trouble? And what about all the lawsuits and personal friends who were turning against him and trying to get him killed? Why not bail in the middle of the night in Kirtland when it looked like it was all going to fail anyway? Why do that and still explain that you know you're going to die a martyr's death? Why not accept the invitation to be broken out of jail when you know you're going to be killed the next day? No, Smith wasn't concerned for his life or his safety, and maintaining a lie like that wasn't making him any money. Your scenario doesn't hold water. It makes sense on the surface if one doesn't know the history, but once you get into it, it doesn't fit at all.
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_William Schryver
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Re: The Mormon Apologist's Modus Operandi

Post by _William Schryver »

beastlie:
Another example is Paul Dunn's use of fictional stories to strengthen belief. Do you think that Paul Dunn knew his stories weren't true? Of course he did. Do you think Paul Dunn genuinely believed in the truth of the church? Of course he did. He deliberately told fictional stories in order to strengthen the faith of others. That doesn't mean he didn't believe in the truth of what he was encouraging people to believe.


whyme:
And he was proven false, I believe. I remember that episode.


beastlie:
You misunderstand the point. The point is that it is possible for people who genuinely believe in the truth of whatever "gospel" they are preaching to believe it is justified to use "props" to help those weaker in the faith also believe. Perhaps my Paul Dunn example will help you get the point.


No, my dear, it is you who misunderstands the point.

Just as the phony faith healer and Paul Dunn were eventually exposed as frauds, all frauds—in time—get exposed. It is the nature of the beast. Oh, sure, some very private frauds/crimes/deceptions can go undetected for a long, long time—perhaps even until judgment day. But in the case of frauds involving more than one person, the likelihood of ultimate exposure is almost certain, and the more people who must be involved in the fraud increases the likelihood of exposure exponentially.

In the case of frauds involving several people, it is possible to keep the lid on when the whole thing is on the ascent; when times are good and the money, power, and flesh is flowing in abundance. But as soon as things go bad, the roaches will run for cover; it’s every man for himself. That’s when “the rest of the story” usually comes out. And yet, at the point in 1839 when it looked like the jig was up, none of the principals broke, even those who became alienated from Joseph Smith, like Whitmer, Cowdery, and others.

Anyway, I’m not going to get into a lengthy discussion with you or anybody else on this board about the sheer ridiculousness of the Vogel “pious fraud” thesis to explain Joseph Smith, I will only reiterate that it is singularly untenable in light of the historical facts that can be brought to bear against it. It is simply an example of what happens when would-be Mormon historians buy into the Dale Morgan school of thought: any explanation other than angels and gold plates is to be given preference.
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_maklelan
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Re: The Mormon Apologist's Modus Operandi

Post by _maklelan »

Thama wrote:Most of the witnesses apostatized. The 8 would have been easy to fool for an accomplished conman,


You would call Joseph Smith's career as a conman "accomplished"? I take it you don't refer to his miserably unsuccessful career as an actual conman during his teens.

Thama wrote:only the 3 would need have been "in on it". I would presume that they were afraid of the consequences, either legal (fraud) or extra-legal (retribution).


Nope. By the time they all wrote their final testimonies on their deathbeds they would have been heroes for falsifying the Book of Mormon. Like Shmo's theory, it only makes sense if you don't know the history very well.
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