Middle way Mormons are in peril

[_RockSlider]

It's not like Dehlin was rejoicing over the bad news.

Yes, If nothing else, that part of the tape is worth listening to, so as to pickup on his demeanor. and judge its truthfullness for yourself.

[_Nomad]

Nomad,
I'm sure that activity rates in Utah do better than the rest of the US and the world.

I don't live in Utah.

But heck why not, if the 35% of Utah membership that pays tithes is willing to continue to finance a worldwide church, that would certainly warrant larger mansions in heaven … likely worth it.

However when I was the financial ward clerk in 2000, 35% of the ward membership did not hold TR’s. It was closer to 15% if I remember right. But that has been 11 years ago and maybe things got better. Good thing there are seven heavens and concrete qualification lists to help keep the wheat separate from the tares.

also note: I keep seeing reduction stories like the following ... in US

http://forum.newordermormon.org/viewtop ... 341#292341

I think it's interesting how much the DAMU works to convince each other that the church is on the verge of dissolution.

[_RockSlider]

I think it's interesting how much the DAMU works to convince each other that the church is on the verge of dissolution.

So you believe that experience as related there is a conspiracy, and the story is a lie?

Might I ask what area of the country you are in? Your new ward situation was not based on a consolidation was it? Did your old ward actually spilt because of over-crowding caused by growth?

[_Kishkumen]

I think it's interesting how much the DAMU works to convince each other that the church is on the verge of dissolution.

If you had the capacity to look beyond your petty prejudices for a moment, I think you would find that both disillusioned LDS people and the leaders of the Church are concerned about the departure of a not inconsequential number of people from the pews.

[_why me]

Wow. When did you start talking to GA's about John? I didn't know you had the inside scoop.

Orders do not come to stake presidents from the GAs in Salt Lake. But the stake president does have freedom to discipline whom he thinks needs discipline or a talk. To assume that GAs are manning the weapons looking for enemies to discipline is a stretch.

The more Mormons there are the more we will find people with various points of view. To assume that the GAs are worried about the middle way is a stretch also. However, if a middle way person begins to challenge standard doctrine of the LDS church or attempts to sow conflict in the LDS church, the SP or Bishop will step in for a talk.

[_Will Schryver]

I think it's interesting how much the DAMU works to convince each other that the church is on the verge of dissolution.

If you had the capacity to look beyond your petty prejudices for a moment, I think you would find that both disillusioned LDS people and the leaders of the Church are concerned about the departure of a not inconsequential number of people from the pews.

Listening to you opine about "petty prejudices" is the acme of irony.

At any rate, here is my anecdotal report:

In Cedar City, Utah (no doubt entirely immune to the influence of the DAMU and the evil internet) a new stake was formed just a couple years ago. My stake and the one next to it will soon need to be divided to make a third.

Over the course of the past ten years that we've lived here, I've been Elders Quorum President, High Councilor, Stake Executive Secretary, and counselor in a Bishopric. I've seen no discernible erosion of membership totals or activity. Sure, there are people who come and go, and some who seem to have left altogether. But I know most their situations, and their departure wasn't due to historical issues, or anything they learned on the internet, etc. Activity rates are about 55%. Full tithe payers/TR holders a little less.

I suppose it's possible this "exodus" of Mormons from the chapel pews is more pronounced along the Wasatch Front, but I'm pretty much convinced at this point that it is largely an anecdotal panacea that exmormons administer to each other.

[_Runtu]

Orders do not come to stake presidents from the GAs in Salt Lake.

I just realized you probably weren't active in the church in 1993, so your ignorance can be excused.

But the stake president does have freedom to discipline whom he thinks needs discipline or a talk. To assume that GAs are manning the weapons looking for enemies to discipline is a stretch.

I doubt any GAs are on the prowl for apostates, but when they are made aware of people, the GAs have been known to intervene with local leaders.

The more Mormons there are the more we will find people with various points of view. To assume that the GAs are worried about the middle way is a stretch also. However, if a middle way person begins to challenge standard doctrine of the LDS church or attempts to sow conflict in the LDS church, the SP or Bishop will step in for a talk.

Personally, if there really is some sort of action going on against these "middle way" folks, I suspect the big problem is that they are going outside of the ecclesiastical channels for support. That's always been frowned upon by the leadership.

[_why me]

If you had the capacity to look beyond your petty prejudices for a moment, I think you would find that both disillusioned LDS people and the leaders of the Church are concerned about the departure of a not inconsequential number of people from the pews.

Yes and no. Lets say that you are a GA and believe the church to be true. Lets say that you have plenty of confirmation about this from your experiences as a GA. And suddenly you see people leaving the LDS church for this or that reason. Should you be concerned for those people who left? I thnk so.

What critics fail to see is the dedication of the GAs to the faith. They believe in the faith. And most likely they all have reasons for such belief based on their own experiences. Of course, they will be concerned for the souls of these people.

Now you of course see it all from a secular point of view as do most critics here. And so, for you there is a secular demension to it all. But this misses the mark.

[_Runtu]

Listening to you opine about "petty prejudices" is the acme of irony.

Not as ironic as you opining about love and kindness. ;-)

At any rate, here is my anecdotal report:

In Cedar City, Utah (no doubt entirely immune to the influence of the DAMU and the evil internet) a new stake was formed just a couple years ago. My stake and the one next to it will soon need to be divided to make a third.

Over the course of the past ten years that we've lived here, I've been Elders Quorum President, High Councilor, Stake Executive Secretary, and counselor in a Bishopric. I've seen no discernible erosion of membership totals or activity. Sure, there are people who come and go, and some who seem to have left altogether. But I know most their situations, and their departure wasn't due to historical issues, or anything they learned on the internet, etc. Activity rates are about 55%. Full tithe payers/TR holders a little less.

I suppose it's possible this "exodus" of Mormons from the chapel pews is more pronounced along the Wasatch Front, but I'm pretty much convinced at this point that it is largely an anecdotal panacea that exmormons administer to each other.

In my view, there's not really an "exodus," but there has been an increase in the number of active, recommend-holding, families who have left the church in recent years. I've known such people in wards I've attended, but most wards probably don't have people leaving, even in a trickle. My friend in Oklahoma's ward is an anomaly in that the Relief Society president and husband, elders quorum president and wife, and bishop's counselor and wife all left within 3 weeks of each other.

But to most people, the loss of some members is probably not "discernible" (but then I can't hold a candle to you when it comes to discernment), but clearly enough people have left that there is some concern in the church leadership. I think that should be obvious, given some of the talks from conferences and other warnings.

But an exodus? Probably not.

[_why me]

Orders do not come to stake presidents from the GAs in Salt Lake.

I just realized you probably weren't active in the church in 1993, so your ignorance can be excused.

When I hear the complaints on this board about the church, it is usually understood to be an attack on the GAs. It is as if that they have nothing better to do than to control every stake president who wishes to talk to a member. Most SPs as in the example of John or in the middle way people will make their own decisions about whether a talk or discipline is necessary because the bishop knows about their opinions concerning the church.

For example, if I have a website dedicated to convincing people that the church is false and the SP knows about it and reads it, well, I can expect a talk from him about my intentions toward the LDS church. It doesn't take a GA to intervene. And if I am a middle way person spouting off about women and the priesthood, abortion, Joseph was a horny toad etc, I can expect a talk from the SP or bishop.