Is the Book of Mormon a 19th century production?

[_why me]

The interesting thing to me is that towards the end of his life Joseph Smith continued to bear witness of the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon. At this point there were a lot of other things going on (Nauvoo Era) but he felt it important to continue to bear testimony of the divine origin of the book. The question that I have is why? Why continue to rely upon the Book of Mormon even during his extremities and during some of the tortuous experiences and events which were occurring all around him.


Regards,
MG

And this is something that the critics have difficulty with getting their heads around. The guy stuck with his own testimony even up to the last moment. And then we have the witnesses, most giving very powerful testomony with their deathbed testimonies.

The odds are against it. Someone would have fessed up. But all continued onward to the last breath with their testimony.

[Guest]

The is a powerful, one word, counter argument here, and the word is Jonestown.

Here we have a charismatic religious cult leader, Jim Jones, who convinced more than 900 of his followers to commit suicide on nothing more than his say so.

You don't know what happened at Jonetown. Jim Jones kept his followers together at gunpoint as they drank the poison.

http://www.time.com/time/photogallery/0 ... 01,00.html

Well, anyway here is the tape. Does it sound like joseph smith? I don't think so.

http://www.archive.org/details/ptc1978-11-18.flac16

[_why me]

You are making a lot of assumptions here. How would we know that they would have thought that they are causing immense amounts of suffering? Even if we assume that they were part of a scam, it is quite possible they thought that it wasn't hurting anyone.

The newspapers were full of Mormon stories and news reports. They would need to live in a bubble not to have known the tragedy of the Mormons.

[_DrW]

You don't know what happened at Jonetown. Jim Jones kept his followers together at gunpoint as they drank the poison.

Well, anyway here is the tape. Does it sound like joseph smith? I don't think so.

http://www.archive.org/details/ptc1978-11-18.flac16

Your counter argument is that Jim Jones does not sound like Joseph Smith?

Do you know what Joseph Smith sounded like?

Or are you referring to what you see as the differences in Joseph Smith's behavior and character as compared to that of Jim Jones?

If so, I seriously doubt that you would want to use Joseph Smith's behavior and character as an argument for the veracity of his account as to the origins of the Book of Mormon.

Joseph Smith was a documented liar and scam artist. It is what he did.

He scammed other men's wives to have sex with him,. He scammed people out of money to look for non-existent buried treasure. He founded a fake bank to scam folks out of their money. He even organized an expedition to Massachusetts to steal what he believed was buried treasure left by a widow in an empty house there (and then wrote about it in the D&C, no less).

What we have in Joseph Smith and Jim Jones are two cult leaders who exploited their followers and enticed them to act against their own self interest.

Any individual today who exhibited the behavior and character that Joseph Smith, Jr. did would not only have been excommunicated from the LDS Church, but would probably be in prison as a convicted felon and rapist.

If you want an example of where Joseph Smith would be were he alive today, just consider the situation in which Warren Jeffs finds himself.

I know you must be frustrated. It is not your fault. The reason you can't find any strong arguments for validity of the Book of Mormon as an ancient text is that there are none.

[_why me]

I don't know of very many scam artists who would voluntarily incriminate themselves, unless they're already in trouble and trying to reduce their sentences.

But as far as I can tell, the witnesses were really sort of gullible dupes.

And what about yourself? What was your excuse? Weren't you a gullible dupe to? However, you seemed to realize it. At least one or two of the witnesses would have been no different. As time moves on, we begin to reevaluate our experiences. We begin to see a clearer picture of what took place. The witnesses would have been no different. Many left the fold and when they did, they would have reevaluated their experience if a reevaluation was needed. However, they seemed to have been through quite an experience, a very real and spiritual experience, so much so, that no reevaluation was necessary regardless of how they felt about Joseph Smith.

[_why me]

You don't know what happened at Jonetown. Jim Jones kept his followers together at gunpoint as they drank the poison.

Well, anyway here is the tape. Does it sound like joseph smith? I don't think so.

http://www.archive.org/details/ptc1978-11-18.flac16

Your counter argument is that Jim Jones does not sound like Joseph Smith?

Do you know what Joseph Smith sounded like?

Or are you referring to what you see as the differences in Joseph Smith's behavior and character as compared to that of Jim Jones?

If so, I seriously doubt that you would want to use Joseph Smith's behavior and character as an argument for the veracity of his account as to the origins of the Book of Mormon.

Joseph Smith was a documented liar and scam artist. It is what he did.

He scammed other men's wives to have sex with him,. He scammed people out of money to look for non-existent buried treasure. He founded a fake bank to scam folks out of their money. He even organized an expedition to Massachusetts to steal what he believed was buried treasure left by a widow in an empty house there (and then wrote about it in the D&C, no less).

What we have in Joseph Smith and Jim Jones are two cult leaders who exploited their followers and enticed them to act against their own self interest.

Any individual today who exhibited the behavior and character that Joseph Smith, Jr. did would not only have been excommunicated from the LDS Church, but would probably be in prison as a convicted felon and rapist.

If you want an example of where Joseph Smith would be were he alive today, just consider the situation in which Warren Jeffs finds himself.

I know you must be frustrated. It is not your fault. The reason you can't find any strong arguments for validity of the Book of Mormon as an ancient text is that there are none.

Listen to the tape of the last moments of jonestown.

I see no mass suicide of Mormons. Nor do I see armed guards keeping members in line as Joseph Smith encouraged a mass suicide. However, I do see Joseph heading off to jail with his brother and two volunteers with a heavy heart because of what may befall him.

[_DrW]

Listen to the tape of the last moments of jonestown.

I see no mass suicide of Mormons. Nor do I see armed guards keeping members in line as Joseph Smith encouraged a mass suicide. However, I do see Joseph heading off to jail with his brother and two volunteers with a heavy heart because of what may befall him.

Peoples Temple, Branch Dividians, and Heaven's Gate were cults that took their members to early death. Death cults, while not that common, certainly do come along every now and then.

I understand that you are not now a member of the LDS Church. If not, then you may not know that, up until a few years ago, faithful Mormons who attended the Temple took an oath to suffer their lives to be taken before revelaing certain "secrets".

Thus, in word if not in deed, Mormonism had overt death cult elements in it up until a few years ago. Joseph Smith put them there.

Mormons may not commit mass suicide, but all who attended the temple up until a few years ago have taken an death oath for an in behalf of the Church.

Is there really such a difference between Joseph Smith and Jim Jones?

Does the character of Joseph Smith really help the case for an ancient origin of the Book of Mormon?

Think about it.

[_beastie]

I see no mass suicide of Mormons. Nor do I see armed guards keeping members in line as Joseph Smith encouraged a mass suicide. However, I do see Joseph heading off to jail with his brother and two volunteers with a heavy heart because of what may befall him.

The point of comparison isn't mass suicide. The point of comparison is intense belief up to the point of being willing to uproot or even lose one's life for that belief.

Don't you get it? It doesn't matter how strongly Joseph Smith or anyone else believed. People all over the world believe foolish and even crazy things, and they believe them as strongly as Joseph Smith believed. The intensity of belief has nothing whatsoever to do with whether or not the particular belief is correct.

And if you insist that it does, then you ought to seriously investigate the claims of Heaven's Gate. Those people all laid down their lives for their belief without being coerced to do so.

Or perhaps you ought to investigate radical Islam. After all, there are plenty of people willing to kill and die for that belief system, as well.

[_why me]

beastie,

I don't think that early Mormons wanted to lose their lives for their beliefs. However, the persecution that they experienced from the mobs was intenseand some lost their lives because of it. Not much different from the early martyrs

Of course if Joseph had his visions and experiences and the witnesses did also, not much can be said here. Such experiences would create strong belief.

Again you are comparing mass suicides to the Mormon experience. But this comparison fall short since no mass suicide ocurred. Joseph went to his own death and did have the flock eat poison jello.

And what are you willing to die for? Your country? Your children? Your friends? Again your comparisons do not hold water. In fact, your comments should be directed at the mobs who persecuted the Mormons.

The comparisons the critics use have no say in this matter: Jim Jones, David Koresh etc. To equate the LDS church with such sects is ignorant.

[_why me]

Peoples Temple, Branch Dividians, and Heaven's Gate were cults that took their members to early death. Death cults, while not that common, certainly do come along every now and then.

I understand that you are not now a member of the LDS Church. If not, then you may not know that, up until a few years ago, faithful Mormons who attended the Temple took an oath to suffer their lives to be taken before revelaing certain "secrets".

I am still a member. I haven't resigned my membership. I remember the old temple ceremony. It was strange but understandable considering the persecutions Mormons experienced. And it certainly had nothing to do with death cults. However, can we claim that the early christians belonged to a death cult since many went to their death quite willingly? And was Christ the leader of a death cult since he willingly went to his death?