RayAgostini wrote:Darth J wrote:Sure I do. One day, the Church will be doing the same revisionist song and dance about gay people as they have been doing for the last 3 decades about black people.
And if they do a turnaround - will you rejoin?
What will make your restless soul happy?
August 17, 1949
The attitude of the Church with reference to Negroes remains as it has always stood. It is not a matter of the declaration of a policy but of direct commandment from the Lord, on which is founded the doctrine of the Church from the days of its organization, to the effect that Negroes may become members of the Church but that they are not entitled to the priesthood at the present time. The prophets of the Lord have made several statements as to the operation of the principle. President Brigham Young said: “Why are so many of the inhabitants of the earth cursed with a skin of blackness? It comes in consequence of their fathers rejecting the power of the holy priesthood, and the law of God. They will go down to death. And when all the rest of the children have received their blessings in the holy priesthood, then that curse will be removed from the seed of Cain, and they will then come up and possess the priesthood, and receive all the blessings which we now are entitled to.”
President Wilford Woodruff made the following statement: “The day will come when all that race will be redeemed and possess all the blessings which we now have.”
The position of the Church regarding the Negro may be understood when another doctrine of the Church is kept in mind, namely, that the conduct of spirits in the premortal existence has some determining effect upon the conditions and circumstances under which these spirits take on mortality and that while the details of this principle have not been made known, the mortality is a privilege that is given to those who maintain their first estate; and that the worth of the privilege is so great that spirits are willing to come to earth and take on bodies no matter what the handicap may be as to the kind of bodies they are to secure; and that among the handicaps, failure of the right to enjoy in mortality the blessings of the priesthood is a handicap which spirits are willing to assume in order that they might come to earth. Under this principle there is no injustice whatsoever involved in this deprivation as to the holding of the priesthood by the Negroes.
The First Presidency
We, the First Presidency and the Council of the Twelve Apostles of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, solemnly proclaim that marriage between a man and a woman is ordained of God and that the family is central to the Creator's plan for the eternal destiny of His children.
All human beings—male and female—are created in the image of God. Each is a beloved spirit son or daughter of heavenly parents, and, as such, each has a divine nature and destiny. Gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose.
In the premortal realm, spirit sons and daughters knew and worshiped God as their Eternal Father and accepted His plan by which His children could obtain a physical body and gain earthly experience to progress toward perfection and ultimately realize his or her divine destiny as an heir of eternal life. The divine plan of happiness enables family relationships to be perpetuated beyond the grave. Sacred ordinances and covenants available in holy temples make it possible for individuals to return to the presence of God and for families to be united eternally.
The first commandment that God gave to Adam and Eve pertained to their potential for parenthood as husband and wife. We declare that God's commandment for His children to multiply and replenish the earth remains in force. We further declare that God has commanded that the sacred powers of procreation are to be employed only between man and woman, lawfully wedded as husband and wife.
We declare the means by which mortal life is created to be divinely appointed. We affirm the sanctity of life and of its importance in God's eternal plan.
Husband and wife have a solemn responsibility to love and care for each other and for their children. "Children are an heritage of the Lord" (Psalms 127:3). Parents have a sacred duty to rear their children in love and righteousness, to provide for their physical and spiritual needs, to teach them to love and serve one another, to observe the commandments of God and to be law-abiding citizens wherever they live. Husbands and wives—mothers and fathers—will be held accountable before God for the discharge of these obligations.
The family is ordained of God. Marriage between man and woman is essential to His eternal plan. Children are entitled to birth within the bonds of matrimony, and to be reared by a father and a mother who honor marital vows with complete fidelity. Happiness in family life is most likely to be achieved when founded upon the teachings of the Lord Jesus Christ. Successful marriages and families are established and maintained on principles of faith, prayer, repentance, forgiveness, respect, love, compassion, work, and wholesome recreational activities. By divine design, fathers are to preside over their families in love and righteousness and are responsible to provide the necessities of life and protection for their families. Mothers are primarily responsible for the nurture of their children. In these sacred responsibilities, fathers and mothers are obligated to help one another as equal partners. Disability, death, or other circumstances may necessitate individual adaptation. Extended families should lend support when needed.
We warn that individuals who violate covenants of chastity, who abuse spouse or offspring, or who fail to fulfill family responsibilities will one day stand accountable before God. Further, we warn that the disintegration of the family will bring upon individuals, communities, and nations the calamities foretold by ancient and modern prophets.
We call upon responsible citizens and officers of government everywhere to promote those measures designed to maintain and strengthen the family as the fundamental unit of society.
This proclamation was read by President Gordon B. Hinckley as part of his message at the General Relief Society Meeting held September 23, 1995, in Salt Lake City, Utah.
Darth J wrote:Someday, after same-sex marriage is generally accepted and society overall isn't bothered by the tiny minority of people who are sexually attracted to the same gender, the Prophet will get a good feeling that now is the time to stop telling gay people they can't have relationships or marry their partners. This will be touted as wonderful, and an example of how the Lord is revealing that things that the rest of the world has already accepted are okay.
When that happens, do you think someone will be ranting against dogmatic anti-Mormons because they won't acknowledge all the positive things that Spencer W. Kimball said about gay people?
RayAgostini wrote:Melchett wrote:
Please enlighten me, Ray. I don't see a twisting of the truth.
I'm double checking every quote in full that has been made.One clear-cut position is that the folklore must never be perpetuated. ... I have to concede to my earlier colleagues. ... They, I'm sure, in their own way, were doing the best they knew to give shape to [the policy], to give context for it, to give even history to it. All I can say is however well intended the explanations were, I think almost all of them were inadequate and/or wrong. ...
It probably would have been advantageous to say nothing, to say we just don't know, and, [as] with many religious matters, whatever was being done was done on the basis of faith at that time. But some explanations were given and had been given for a lot of years. ... At the very least, there should be no effort to perpetuate those efforts to explain why that doctrine existed. I think, to the extent that I know anything about it, as one of the newer and younger ones to come along, ... we simply do not know why that practice, that policy, that doctrine was in place.
Jeffrey Holland PBS Interview.
The link probably won't work, but you can look up Elder Holland's PBS interview on the Net.
Darth J wrote:Yesterday's Mormon folklore:August 17, 1949
The attitude of the Church with reference to Negroes remains as it has always stood. It is not a matter of the declaration of a policy but of direct commandment from the Lord, on which is founded the doctrine of the Church from the days of its organization, to the effect that Negroes may become members of the Church but that they are not entitled to the priesthood at the present time. The prophets of the Lord have made several statements as to the operation of the principle. President Brigham Young said: “Why are so many of the inhabitants of the earth cursed with a skin of blackness? It comes in consequence of their fathers rejecting the power of the holy priesthood, and the law of God. They will go down to death. And when all the rest of the children have received their blessings in the holy priesthood, then that curse will be removed from the seed of Cain, and they will then come up and possess the priesthood, and receive all the blessings which we now are entitled to.”
President Wilford Woodruff made the following statement: “The day will come when all that race will be redeemed and possess all the blessings which we now have.”
The position of the Church regarding the Negro may be understood when another doctrine of the Church is kept in mind, namely, that the conduct of spirits in the premortal existence has some determining effect upon the conditions and circumstances under which these spirits take on mortality and that while the details of this principle have not been made known, the mortality is a privilege that is given to those who maintain their first estate; and that the worth of the privilege is so great that spirits are willing to come to earth and take on bodies no matter what the handicap may be as to the kind of bodies they are to secure; and that among the handicaps, failure of the right to enjoy in mortality the blessings of the priesthood is a handicap which spirits are willing to assume in order that they might come to earth. Under this principle there is no injustice whatsoever involved in this deprivation as to the holding of the priesthood by the Negroes.
The First Presidency
RayAgostini wrote:Darth J wrote:Someday, after same-sex marriage is generally accepted and society overall isn't bothered by the tiny minority of people who are sexually attracted to the same gender, the Prophet will get a good feeling that now is the time to stop telling gay people they can't have relationships or marry their partners. This will be touted as wonderful, and an example of how the Lord is revealing that things that the rest of the world has already accepted are okay.
When that happens, do you think someone will be ranting against dogmatic anti-Mormons because they won't acknowledge all the positive things that Spencer W. Kimball said about gay people?
I dunno. The opposition isn't only coming from the LDS Church:
Coercing consciences in the push for marriage equality.
It's also coming from conservative gay people:
Vote against gay marriage.
Keep thinking in "black and white", Darth, and keep believing the whole world is on your side. That should reassure your singular and obsessive hobby: anti-Mormonism.
Darth J wrote:You are welcome to show where I said that only Mormons are racist, or only Mormons are opposed to same-sex marriage.
Thank you, however, for reminding us how the LDS Church just goes along with various social trends and movements, and shows no particular signs of being guided by divine inspiration.
It's not that the One, True Restored Church of Jesus Christ That Is Led By A Living Prophet of God is necessarily worse than anyone else (though that is arguable). It's that it isn't any better.
We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.
RayAgostini wrote:Darth J wrote:You are welcome to show where I said that only Mormons are racist, or only Mormons are opposed to same-sex marriage.
Thank you, however, for reminding us how the LDS Church just goes along with various social trends and movements, and shows no particular signs of being guided by divine inspiration.
It's not that the One, True Restored Church of Jesus Christ That Is Led By A Living Prophet of God is necessarily worse than anyone else (though that is arguable). It's that it isn't any better.
If it doesn't, then why are you attacking it so much? Why are you comparing 1949 quotes to 2000's quotes?
You want people to leave Mormonism for "fundamentalist reasons"? If 1949 quotes don't match 2011 quotes, they should abandon Mormonism?
9th Article of Faith:We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.
Has God revealed anything about "gay people" in any LDS scripture?
Darth J wrote:No. So "we don't know" why the Church opposes same-sex marriage, and to the extent attempts have been made to explain it, it is folklore.
Do you feel that the 9th Article of Faith encompasses past commandments being dismissed as folklore, even thought the doctrinal bases for the past commandments were not repudiated?
33 For none of these iniquities come of the Lord; for he doeth that which is good among the children of men; and he doeth nothing save it be plain unto the children of men; and he inviteth them all to come unto him and partake of his goodness; and he denieth none that come unto him, black and white, bond and free, male and female; and he remembereth the heathen; and all are alike unto God, both Jew and Gentile.