JSJr's Face-in-the-Hat: Troubling to the Faithful

[_Runtu]

Now take this picture. Here we have Joseph Smith with his head in his hat. He see a light shining into his eyes but experiences no problem. And he also has to breathe and speak clear enough into the hat to be heard by the scribe. Try it and see what happens. I will bet a penny that you can't do it for a long time. Try it with a dull small flash light and place it in your hat. And keep looking into it. But make sure that your head is in the hat. Good luck.

So, those who described the translation were lying?

As I've said before, I do not believe he had his head in a hat the entire time, or even most of the time. This was classic misdirection, nothing more.

[_Chap]

Now take this picture. Here we have Joseph Smith with his head in his hat. He see a light shining into his eyes but experiences no problem. And he also has to breathe and speak clear enough into the hat to be heard by the scribe. Try it and see what happens. I will bet a penny that you can't do it for a long time. Try it with a dull small flash light and place it in your hat. And keep looking into it. But make sure that your head is in the hat. Good luck.

So, those who described the translation were lying?

As I've said before, I do not believe he had his head in a hat the entire time, or even most of the time. This was classic misdirection, nothing more.

Answer a whyme according to his ... whatever:

No-one who refers to the 'stone in hat' method of translation claims that Joseph Smith kept his head stuck right in there all the time. He could perfectly well have peered into it to read the glowing words on the stone, lifted his head out a bit to dictate, then looked back in to check they had vanished (which is the way one witness says he knew the scribe had written them correctly).

The essential points, attested by several witnesses, are:

1. English words of Book of Mormon translation appear on magic stone in hat, into which Joseph Smith had to look to read them.

2. No need to look at the actual plates at all.

None of this represented in conventional LDS iconography, which repeatedly shows Joseph Smith reading from the plates, without any representation of the magic stone or the hat in which it was placed.

[_Runtu]

None of this represented in conventional LDS iconography, which repeatedly shows Joseph Smith reading from the plates, without any representation of the magic stone or the hat in which it was placed.

Precisely. why me's point is a ridiculous one:

The method the witnesses describe is absurd. So, it's up to skeptics to prove how the absurd description works.

[_DrW]

Here is a link to a painting of King George III. How likely is it that King George III actually looked like this? I think we both know that these sorts of paintings are meant to remind us of a monarch's majesty and power, not of what he actually looked like.

Ludwig,

The various "approved" images of Joseph Smith that you found on the LDS.org website make a good point.

Absent are Joseph Smith with his face in a hat, Joseph Smith with any of his wives (not even Emma), and Joseph Smith stone drunk on horseback. These are just a few of his well documented (but not so faith promoting) activities that are not reflected in the art (iconography?) of the LDS Church.

[_Fence Sitter]

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Very funny!!!

[_Hades]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the stone in the hat the method used for finding hidden treasure?

I wonder if that is another reason COJCOLDS wants to distance itself from the method.

The versatility of seer stones. You can find hidden treasure. You can translate ancient scripture. You can use them to charm warts. In today's world you could use them to make stock picks and plan your future retirement. Find God's will for you in a seer stone.

[_Runtu]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the stone in the hat the method used for finding hidden treasure?

I wonder if that is another reason COJCOLDS wants to distance itself from the method.

The versatility of seer stones. You can find hidden treasure. You can translate ancient scripture. You can use them to charm warts. In today's world you could use them to make stock picks and plan your future retirement. Find God's will for you in a seer stone.

Yes, it was used to find treasure and other lost items. I think the connection to glass-looking, with its connotations of the occult (and grifting) is what makes people a bit squeamish about the translation method.

[_logjamislds]

The idea of Joseph Smith using a "glass" shouldn't be faith-shaking to Latter Day Saints. It was a very ancient practice. Paul alluded to it in 1 Cor 13: 12. ("Glass" at that time wasn't windows, but rather a polished, reflective surface like a mirror.) The Urim and Thummim, also of antiquity, was two glass / crystal stones set in a device. Whoso possessed it was known as a "seer", a title of respect and religious authority. The practice must have been righteous, because it was corrupted by Lucifer and his counterfeits. (Crystal ball gazing and such like.) And, what better way to see what was being shown in a stone or glass than to put it into a hat, and block out the light? If you have your cell phone outdoors on a bright day, do you not try and shade it so you can see what's on the screen? Think about these things a little bit, Saints. Don't let the apostates throw you off the Iron Rod with their scare tactics. And, by the way, what will the faithful be given by Christ? A white stone. (Rev. 2: 17.) (Footnote calls it a Urim and Thummim.)

[_sock puppet]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the stone in the hat the method used for finding hidden treasure?

I wonder if that is another reason COJCOLDS wants to distance itself from the method.

The versatility of seer stones. You can find hidden treasure. You can translate ancient scripture. You can use them to charm warts. In today's world you could use them to make stock picks and plan your future retirement. Find God's will for you in a seer stone.

Yes, it was used to find treasure and other lost items. I think the connection to glass-looking, with its connotations of the occult (and grifting) is what makes people a bit squeamish about the translation method.

I think glass-looking itself had made the New York Assembly (New York's state legislature) squeamish too, and that is why it is conduct that had been criminalized before JSJr's hay-day doing it. The magic rocks were tools of his criminal trade. If it were a crime being investigated today, the magic rocks would be locked up in the evidence room at the local police station.

[_Runtu]

The idea of Joseph Smith using a "glass" shouldn't be faith-shaking to Latter Day Saints. It was a very ancient practice. Paul alluded to it in 1 Cor 13: 12. ("Glass" at that time wasn't windows, but rather a polished, reflective surface like a mirror.) The Urim and Thummim, also of antiquity, was two glass / crystal stones set in a device. Whoso possessed it was known as a "seer", a title of respect and religious authority. The practice must have been righteous, because it was corrupted by Lucifer and his counterfeits. (Crystal ball gazing and such like.) And, what better way to see what was being shown in a stone or glass than to put it into a hat, and block out the light? If you have your cell phone outdoors on a bright day, do you not try and shade it so you can see what's on the screen? Think about these things a little bit, Saints. Don't let the apostates throw you off the Iron Rod with their scare tactics. And, by the way, what will the faithful be given by Christ? A white stone. (Rev. 2: 17.) (Footnote calls it a Urim and Thummim.)

Here's the problem: Joseph appears to have been using the stones in the "corrupted" ways you describe before he started working on the Book of Mormon. Suddenly, however, he uses the stones to translate scripture, and it's all on the up and up. I think it's that disconnect that has driven the church culture to shy away from accurate depictions of the translation process.