Facsimile 3

[_zeezrom]

Tobin,

On a scale of 1 to 10, how badly do you *want* the church to be true? 10 being extreme desire and 1 being not wanting it. I'm just curious.

[Guest]

God didn't hand the papyri to Joseph Smith and ask him him to translate it. You have to bear in mind, Joseph Smith wasn't perfect and just as human as the rest of us.

You really aren't familiar with what Joseph Smith said regarding the papyrus or how they fell into his hands by the Almighty providence of God. You just don't know the story, Tobin. You should just shut up and do some research -- you're ignorant and make a fool out of yourself because you don't know Mormon history.

William Phelps wrote:

"The last of June four Egyptian mummies were brought here; there were two papyrus rolls, besides some other ancient Egyptian writings with them. As no one could translate these writings, they were presented to President Smith. He soon knew what they were and said they, the 'rolls of papyrus,' contained the sacred record kept of Joseph in Pharaoh’s Court in Egypt, and the teachings of Father Abraham. God has so ordered it that these mummies and writings have been brought in the Church, and the sacred writing I have just locked up in Brother Joseph’s house"

Paul O

You are being completely disingenuous. Neither God nor an Angel appeared and handed the papyri to Joseph Smith and command him to translate the papyri, unlike the Gold Plates. Joseph Smith orchestrated this and felt it was ordered by God.

[_Shulem]

Tobin knows the church is a lie. He's playing a game to get his rocks off. Ain't that right, Tobin-boy -- you need a little stroking -- of your ego? Stroke your own ego, boy. I'm not going to stroke it.

Paul O

[_Equality]

The Facsimiles were part of the Egyptian papyri. They have nothing to do with the Book of Abraham. As I've already stated, the original writings and depictions made by Abraham do not exist and were lost long ago.

You keep saying this as if it helps the case for Joseph Smith. It doesn't. Joseph Smith thought the papyri had something to do with Abraham. He told people so. His mistaken thoughts on the same were canonized as scripture by common consent of the body of the "restored" church, and have remained in the canon ever since. God, who supposedly guides his prophets, has allowed this falsehood to be presented to the world as rock-solid truth for almost two centuries, without a peep to Joseph or any of his successors. That tells us that either Joseph and his successors were (and are) lying about being inspired by God, or God inspires them on some things (e.g., oh, I don't know, Zelph, the evils of tattoos, flip-flops, and multiple earrings) but not on this particular issue. Why does God inspire his prophets and NOT tell them about fundamental errors in the scriptures that are supposed to be God's words to his children? You still haven't answered that basic question. I strongly suspect it is because you have no satisfactory answer.

[_Tobin]

So? There is no reason to think the Egyptians would have any interest in preserving a story about Abraham and his myths. They were pagans and had no motive to do so. They would write about their stories and myths.

That's what you say but the prophet Joseph Smith and his right hand man Oliver Cowdery said otherwise using their authority and office of the priesthood. But I'm not going to provide those quotes. You remain ignorant.

There are numerous witnesses who wrote about how Joseph Smith said a record of Abraham was preserved by the Egyptians. You Tobin, are not in step with Joseph Smith. I think you're an apostate and a liar. You ain't fooling me.

Paul O

Paul, It is a ridiculous assertion that I have to accept everything Joseph Smith claimed. He was a human being and fully capable of being mistaken. Mormons don't have to believe everything Joseph Smith said. They should accept everything that he said that is true and is from God.

[_Equality]

They should accept everything that he said that is true and is from God.

I agree completely. People should not accept anything Joseph Smith said. I am glad we finally see eye to eye on something.

[_Tobin]

The Facsimiles were part of the Egyptian papyri. They have nothing to do with the Book of Abraham. As I've already stated, the original writings and depictions made by Abraham do not exist and were lost long ago.

You keep saying this as if it helps the case for Joseph Smith. It doesn't. Joseph Smith thought the papyri had something to do with Abraham. He told people so. His mistaken thoughts on the same were canonized as scripture by common consent of the body of the "restored" church, and have remained in the canon ever since. God, who supposedly guides his prophets, has allowed this falsehood to be presented to the world as rock-solid truth for almost two centuries, without a peep to Joseph or any of his successors. That tells us that either Joseph and his successors were (and are) lying about being inspired by God, or God inspires them on some things (e.g., oh, I don't know, Zelph, the evils of tattoos, flip-flops, and multiple earrings) but not on this particular issue. Why does God inspire his prophets and NOT tell them about fundamental errors in the scriptures that are supposed to be God's words to his children? You still haven't answered that basic question. I strongly suspect it is because you have no satisfactory answer.

Not everything in the Book of Mormon, Bible, and so on is true or from God. I accept the truth, not some magic saying just because it is "officially" published in books like that. I employ reason, context, history, knowledge of the Gospel and inspiritation from God. All Mormons should. The idea that Joseph Smith could read and understood Egyptian Hieroglyphics is factually (and has been demonstrated) false. I have no obligation to believe that no matter where it is published. The idea that Joseph Smith translated pagan Egyptian papyri and derived the Book of Abraham (which isn't contained in the papyri) is factually (and has been demonstrated) false. I am under no obligation to accept that either. I'm interested in the truth, not magic sayings or incorrect views expressed in the Church or its canon.

[_Tobin]

Tobin,

On a scale of 1 to 10, how badly do you *want* the church to be true? 10 being extreme desire and 1 being not wanting it. I'm just curious.

I don't *want* the LDS Church to be anything. The LDS Church is merely an association of members and a vehicle (a very flawed one) to get to God and the Kingdom of Heaven. God and the Kingdom of Heaven (Church of God) is a completely different animal and what I'm truly interested in. God's existence is true. God's Word (the Gospel) is true. That is what I want.

[_zeezrom]

Tobin,

On a scale of 1 to 10, how badly do you *want* the church to be true? 10 being extreme desire and 1 being not wanting it. I'm just curious.

I don't *want* the LDS Church to be anything. The LDS Church is merely an association of members and a vehicle (a very flawed one) to get to God and the Kingdom of Heaven. God and the Kingdom of Heaven (Church of God) is a completely different animal and what I'm truly interested in. God's existence is true. God's Word (the Gospel) is true. That is what I want.

Skadoosh!

C'mon, you are a Mormon so you know what I mean.

How badly do you want the Gospel to be true on a scale of 1 to 10?

[_Tobin]

I don't *want* the LDS Church to be anything. The LDS Church is merely an association of members and a vehicle (a very flawed one) to get to God and the Kingdom of Heaven. God and the Kingdom of Heaven (Church of God) is a completely different animal and what I'm truly interested in. God's existence is true. God's Word (the Gospel) is true. That is what I want.

Skadoosh!

C'mon, you are a Mormon so you know what I mean.

How badly do you want the Gospel to be true on a scale of 1 to 10?

The Gospel is true because it is the word of God. I don't have to want it to be true. The question is - what are the true doctrines of God and what are the teachings of men? The answer to that is truth will withstand scrutiny and the test of time. The doctrines of men (and false philosophies) will not.

Now Zeerzom, I know there is a God. He loves each and every one of us. And God wants us to know the truth. The truth is there is a God and we can know that if we'll seek him, speak with him, and do as he asks.