Tobin wrote:If you wish to believe God is a fiction, that is your right.
Don't put words into my mouth.
I believe that God is real and it is in your best interest to humble yourself, repent, seek him and follow him. Of course, you can believe and do whatever you want, as foolish as it may turn out to be.
You keep assuming that a) I don't believe in God and b) I have not humbled myself, repented, sought Him and followed Him. Again, rather presumptuous (and wrong).
Again, I think your approach and attitude is very telling. You don't strike me as a humble follower of God that is honestly inquiring and seeking after him and his word. If I'm mistaken, I apologize. I seriously doubt it though.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
Bob Loblaw wrote: No. My claim is simply this: the Book of Abraham is not a translation of papyrus, though it is claimed to be by Joseph Smith and the LDS church; also, the text is an anachronistic mess that screams fraud. You tell me to ask God if it's true. I have. You may value your spiritual witness over mine (which is your right), but I am glad that the answers to my prayers are consistent with the evidence. I don't have to put aside reason to believe. If God really wanted us to ignore reason, we could believe in anything. Why not pray about Smurfs or midi-chlorians or Xenu?
Tobin is now just repeating his old mantra without listening to what you or anyone else says. His arguments are a mess and very inconsistent. I have brought them up many times making him very upset enough to put me on ignore. Thank Xenu for that.
Bob Loblaw wrote: No. My claim is simply this: the Book of Abraham is not a translation of papyrus, though it is claimed to be by Joseph Smith and the LDS church; also, the text is an anachronistic mess that screams fraud. You tell me to ask God if it's true. I have. You may value your spiritual witness over mine (which is your right), but I am glad that the answers to my prayers are consistent with the evidence. I don't have to put aside reason to believe. If God really wanted us to ignore reason, we could believe in anything. Why not pray about Smurfs or midi-chlorians or Xenu?
Tobin is now just repeating his old mantra without listening to what you or anyone else says. His arguments are a mess and very inconsistent. I have brought them up many times making him very upset enough to put me on ignore. Thank Xenu for that.
Not really. The reason I ignore you is mostly because you aren't very interesting. You mostly just make baseless assertions, attacks, or complete mischaracterizations (with nothing to back them up) and so your views are mostly derivative, worthless, uninformed and uninformative. I don't view you as someone that is likely to enlighten and teach me something, so further discussion with you is not worthwhile.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
Tobin wrote:God is inviting you to suspend your disbelief and seek him and speak with him. Unless and until you are willing to do so, you are damned (literally stopped). This will be true in this life and the next. Even when you die, you will remain as you are - unable to believe or follow God until you give up your preconceptions, humble yourself, repent (literally change) and believe in and follow God. Now, you may view the Book of Abraham and Book of Mormon as a ridiculous hoax. That is your right, but those of us that have spoken with God value them and all of God's "revealed" words.
Yes! If the voices in your head tell you things that are inconsistent with objective reality, objective reality is wrong.
Tobin wrote:God is inviting you to suspend your disbelief and seek him and speak with him. Unless and until you are willing to do so, you are damned (literally stopped). This will be true in this life and the next. Even when you die, you will remain as you are - unable to believe or follow God until you give up your preconceptions, humble yourself, repent (literally change) and believe in and follow God. Now, you may view the Book of Abraham and Book of Mormon as a ridiculous hoax. That is your right, but those of us that have spoken with God value them and all of God's "revealed" words.
Yes! If the voices in your head tell you things that are inconsistent with objective reality, objective reality is wrong.
There really are moments when Tobin goes into full-on "weird guy shouting in the street" mode.
(And what's with the strange business about "damned" and "repent" literally meaning "stopped" and "change"? Not in English, they don't.)
Zadok: I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis. Maksutov: That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
To the OP, in the 1830s and 1840s, JSJr the prophet claimed that the Book of Abraham text was taken as a linguistic translation from the papyri he bought in 1835 from Chandler, in Kirtland. In 1842, it was published as being the story of Father Abraham, himself having written the Egyptian on the papyri. This was later canonized as LDS scripture, twice.
Thanks to Champollion and finding the Rosetta Stone, ancient Egyptian writings have been able to be linguistically translated into English.
The KEP are 'work papers' of JSJr and scribes trying to 'translate' the Egyptian writings on the papyri. The combination of the existence and then contents of the KEP leaking out (LDS Church tried to keep the KEP existence under wraps), and the papyri being found in the 1960s in essence caught JSJr in his lie.
The KEP inextricably link the Book of Abraham text's opening paragraphs to the extant, found papyri fragments. It lines up Egyptian characters taken in order from that papyri with those paragraphs of the Book of Abraham text. (Scroll length is simply a diversionary tactic by mopologists, such as Gee; Chris and Andrew's efforts are dispelling of the mopologetic canard. The fact is, the KEP ties the Book of Abraham text paragraphs to the found papyri.)
Since those Egyptian characters on the papyri do NOT translate linguistically into the opening paragraphs of the Book of Abraham text, it shows that the Book of Abraham is not what JSJr claimed and represented it to be. It is not a translation of a story of Abraham, written by Abraham on that papyri, in ancient Egyptian.
That leaves the mopologists arguing that the papyri was merely a catalyst, to get JSJr tuned in to receive a divine revelation, part in 1835 and the rest in 1842. They have to also paint JSJr out to have been duped by the divine as to there being a 'translation' to avoid the fact that JSJr knowingly misled people as to how the Book of Abraham text came to be. Better in the mopologetic mindset to blame god for duping JSJr than admit that JSJr was duping his followers; as amazing as it is, they'd rather paint their god as a defrauder than to brush JSJr with that color.
Then there are the Facsimiles and their Explanations. Issues? No, these are slam dunks. These are the clear and irrefutable evidence the JSJr was either schizophrenic/delusional or a snake oil salesman.
Tobin wrote:You can claim everything is a derivative of something else. This is just another of those looney theories out there that Joseph Smith was the greatest scholar of all time and derived and distilled all this information from other sources.
Yes, it's incredibly loony to imagine that Joseph Smith borrowed from the books he was reading at the time. Seriously?
Tobin wrote:So long as you will not believe or follow God or his prophets, I am certain you are damned. I don't have to pass judgement. It is just a fact of life.
I don't appreciate being told I don't believe in or follow God. You do not know that at all. Nor do you know I'm damned.
Tobin wrote:I'm not the one disbelieving God's prophet or disputing his words. I value all of his words, no matter the source. That is the difference between us.
The difference between us is that you believe the Book of Abraham is God's word. I don't. I value His words. I just don't think the mess that is the Book of Abraham is part of them.
"It doesn't seem fair, does it Norm--that I should have so much knowledge when there are people in the world that have to go to bed stupid every night." -- Clifford C. Clavin, USPS
"¡No contaban con mi astucia!" -- El Chapulin Colorado
Tobin wrote: Not really. The reason I ignore you is mostly because you aren't very interesting. You mostly just make baseless assertions, attacks, or complete mischaracterizations (with nothing to back them up) and so your views are mostly derivative, worthless, uninformed and uninformative. I don't view you as someone that is likely to enlighten and teach me something, so further discussion with you is not worthwhile.
Dang. Oh well. I have learned some things from some poster believers and non-believers. Unfortunately you haven't been one of them. I still think you are a good guy, just very inconsistent with your reasoning. This is understandable in order to try and defend some of the things like the Book of Abraham. by the way I don't remember attacking you, just some of your arguments.
Themis wrote:Tobin is now just repeating his old mantra without listening to what you or anyone else says. His arguments are a mess and very inconsistent. I have brought them up many times making him very upset enough to put me on ignore. Thank Xenu for that.
Not really. The reason I ignore you is mostly because you aren't very interesting. You mostly just make baseless assertions, attacks, or complete mischaracterizations (with nothing to back them up) and so your views are mostly derivative, worthless, uninformed and uninformative. I don't view you as someone that is likely to enlighten and teach me something, so further discussion with you is not worthwhile.
