For Pahoran: Did Smith have sex with Helen Mar Kimball?

[_sock puppet]

I have always doubted that this was a sexual relationship. I think Joseph Smith intended it to become a sexual relationship, but was killed before that could happen.

But that would not explain why Joseph Smith did not then do non-sexual sealings to younger girls, say 4 years old. Just line 'em up for future times when they reach the sex-appropriate age--whatever that meant for JSJr.

[_why me]

Does anyone here claim to have put this issue of whether JSJr had sex with his extra 'wives' to Moroni's test and gotten a burning bosom?

Actually, many of the women who married Joseph Smith did so only after they experienced a powerful spiritual experience after they prayed about it. And this spiritual experience was so powerful that they could not deny it. Lucy Walker was such a woman.

[_sock puppet]

I said on the other thread that I literally laughed out loud when I read Pahoran's response to my inquiry, and I meant it. To insist that one has to be harboring nascent pedophilia in order to believe that a married man may have had sex with his wife... can I really say it any better than "LOL"?

I've never been much for outrage over the ages of Joseph Smith's young brides, and I'm agnostic on whether or not Smith's marriage to Helen was ever consummated. Quinn thinks it was consummated, Hales thinks that it wasn't and was for "eternity only," Compton thinks it was not consummated but maintains that the marriage was for time and eternity (so it would have been consummated eventually?). Those are all intelligent and reasonable LDS scholars who have come to their conclusions through careful sifting of the primary sources. My own feelings are that they have come to such different conclusions because the evidence is highly ambiguous, so there is no need to demonize any of those positions as irresponsible or unreasonably biased.

That's a nice summation on a thread that could use a nice summation.

I still think it was more likely than not and that those who take the absolutely not position have a very heavy burden which they have not met.

Why in the absence of evidence would the presumption be no sex for this marriage? A key purpose of marriage is for sexual relations. The LDS Church's own stance against same sex marriages argues as much, as sexual relations are necessary for procreation.

The Book of Mormon's exception carved out from monogamy for multiple wives is to 'raise up a righteous seed'. No sex, no seed.

So why would the defenders push for a presumption of no sex in a marriage, contra to what is normally indicated by the term 'marriage'? To indict JSJr for practices contrary to the Book of Mormon?

Seems absurd that the presumption, in the absence of evidence, is no sex in a marriage. Seems even stranger that the Mormons insist that JSJr had abnormal 'marriages' (abnormal in that they were sexless, not abnormal in that they were illegal where they ostensibly took place or that they also had to be kept secret).

[_sock puppet]

Does anyone here claim to have put this issue of whether JSJr had sex with his extra 'wives' to Moroni's test and gotten a burning bosom?

Actually, many of the women who married Joseph Smith did so only after they experienced a powerful spiritual experience after they prayed about it. And this spiritual experience was so powerful that they could not deny it. Lucy Walker was such a woman.

That's not what I asked.

That does not go to the odd claim that marriages were sexless.

Also, that's hearsay.

I want to know if anyone here that defends Mormonism has had their bosom burn after they asked god whether JSJr did not have sex with his extra 'wives'?

[_just me]

Well, let me put it this way and I am not Pahoran. First, I cannot say that many women would have been happy using a condom that has been inside other women, regardless if it is cleaned.

I cannot say that many women would be happy using a cock that has been inside other women, regardless of it is cleaned.

LMAO

Standards of cleanliness were a tad different back then.

[_The Erotic Apologist]

Been a while since I looked at this thread...did we ever figure out if Pahoran [deleted]?

[_degaston]

I'm curious to know what the historical record says about Brigham Young Plural Marriages (and conceptions) before Joseph Smith died.

[_beefcalf]

I'm curious to know what the historical record says about Brigham Young Plural Marriages (and conceptions) before Joseph Smith died.

Another gaping hole in the good ship 'Dynastic Marriage'. Brigham Young, Hyrum Smith and a bunch of the top-level Mormons in Nauvoo all had polygamous wives. It's not terribly hard to imagine that at least some of them had offspring with their plural wives. If this is shown to be true, why would Smith's practice of polygamy be one way (sexless) while every other polygamist were free to have at it, so to speak?

[_Fence Sitter]

Another gaping hole in the good ship 'Dynastic Marriage'. Brigham Young, Hyrum Smith and a bunch of the top-level Mormons in Nauvoo all had polygamous wives. It's not terribly hard to imagine that at least some of them had offspring with their plural wives. If this is shown to be true, why would Smith's practice of polygamy be one way (sexless) while every other polygamist were free to have at it, so to speak?

You don't have to imagine. We know William Clayton's 1st plural wife (Margaret Moon) got pregnant.

[_Spanner]

Contraception was available and Dr John C. Bennett would have taught JSJr all the tricks. Condoms made from lamb intestine and/or sponge or flannel "caps" soaked in vinegar or lemon juice as a spermicide. And abortion as a back up.