Mickelson Case: GA coverup cont.,

[_Rosebud]

Toddlers and pre-schoolers can't be 'promiscuous'.

No, but they can be presexualized through being given candy and praise for behaving sexually. (There are other methods as well.) Presexualized children will sometimes behave sexually aggressively or assertively towards adults who were not involved in their abuse or presexualization.

It is fairly critical that people understand this. Otherwise, any innocent adult who interacts with a presexualized child can be falsely accused of child sexual abuse without the public recognizing the potential for the adult's innocence.

The fact that the child behaved sexually with Mikelsen is not evidence against either of them; it's evidence the child was most likely abused by somebody. We have no information about who that person might have been. It could have been Karren. It could have been Mikelsen. It could have been both of them together and this public fight could be a game of chicken. It could have been someone else. We have no idea.

Public accusations of child sexual abuse are very serious. It seems irresponsible to assume that the accuser is innocent until proven guilty rather than the other way around. Mikelsen is innocent until proven guilty and so far no compelling evidence or even accusations have been given. (Not implying Lemmie has done this just because I quoted him/her.)

[_Res Ipsa]

OK Lemmie, I found it. It was written by MikeUtah, owner of Life After Mormonism. It is his introduction to the video. I haven't seen Karren make that claim in anything he has posted. He gave a fairly detailed description of what his wife said about the call.I didn't see any claim that the grandfather said there were three years of "promiscuous" behavior.

[_Lemmie]

OK Lemmie, I found it. It was written by MikeUtah, owner of Life After Mormonism. It is his introduction to the video. I haven't seen Karren make that claim in anything he has posted. He gave a fairly detailed description of what his wife said about the call.I didn't see any claim that the grandfather said there were three years of "promiscuous" behavior.

Thank you for tracking that down! It is very helpful to see the context.

It is fairly critical that people understand this. Otherwise, any innocent adult who interacts with a presexualized child can be falsely accused of child sexual abuse without the public recognizing the potential for the adult's innocence.

The fact that the child behaved sexually with Mikelsen is not evidence against either of them; it's evidence the child was most likely abused by somebody.

I agree wholeheartedly. My issue was on the judgmental nature of the term, as though it could be the child's fault.

[_Rosebud]

I agree wholeheartedly. My issue was on the judgmental nature of the term, as though it could be the child's fault.

Yes, that's very ugly.... and also very common within Mormon culture. I'd go farther and say it's even abusive, although certainly not comparable to child sexual abuse. Women and children deal with this kind of abusive language within Mormonism all the time. It's very confusing to see it get mixed up with child sexual abuse, though. A lot of people seem to be having a problem differentiating between the two different kinds of abuses; that is concerning to me as I watch this go down.

What bothers me too, from what I see so far, is that whether or not Mikelsen actually said this, Karren seems to be perpetuating it. He doesn't need to defend his daughter from that accusation publicly. Of course it isn't true! No brainer. The fact that he seems to think he needs to defend her or that she might think she needs to defend herself tells me that rather than rolling their eyes and poo-pooing the notion from the beginning and investigating the situation to see if they could figure out what harm might be coming to her as would have been helpful to the girl, they got all upset about it and treated it as if it were insulting when it wasn't. It was concerning. And now they're starting a war over it. They give the ridiculous accusation more credibility than it deserves by making a big issue out of it.

If I had to venture a guess, it would be that Karren's focus on that dumb idea has allowed it to become part of his daughter's identity to the extent that she feels she must now fight it when the reality is that there was never anything to fight. In Exhibit B we see that his son was all riled up about the accusation and was furthering the abusive language and notions (to be clear, not child sexual abuse) commonly directed at Mormon women by speaking about another girl who got pregnant as a teenager as if that was shameful to her. Women have it rough, my god. So hard. These poor girls.

I think Karren's daughter would be well off to put some major space between herself and her father until she can get some good treatment and her own two feet on the ground.

[_AmyJo]

You made the statement "All we have is Karren's statement that whatever mental health professional was involved at the time rejected Karren's claims." Failing to connect the dots as Karran says is not the same as rejecting his claims, which is as you state. So you took what he said out of context and gave it a different interpretation from what he said. If you tell me the day is cloudy, but I don't see through the same window that you do, I don't connect the dots per se. But it doesn't mean I'm rejecting what you just said.

I'm not leaping to conclusions, why are you making false judgments and accusations against me? You're starting to sound like Tobin.

I don't believe what you say just because you say it's so. Nor do I believe Karran just because he says it's so. What I am doing is giving him the benefit of the doubt until and unless he proves us wrong. He is on a road to redemption - both his and his daughter's. I'm waiting to see where that leads.

Karren made his pedophilia accusation in the divorce action. If they didn't accept it, which he acknowledges, they rejected it. You can play word games all you want. It doesn't change what happened.

You haven't just been giving Karren the benefit of the doubt: you have repeatedly presented Karren's claims as fact. Your posts on this subject are full of conclusions that you've leapt to. Everyone can read them.

I''d be very happy to let folks read the most recent thread in Telestial to see which of us acts more like Tobin.

I wasn't the one shadowing Tobin to add to his melodrama that got him banished to Telestial, you are. And the only one I might add. Why is anyone's guess, but it does beg the question what you're up to. Everyone else saw through him and called him on it but you.

Nor have I presented Karran's claims as fact. You again are twisting words or putting words into other people's meanings we have not said. I am sharing his postings, yes, and accepting what he has to say at face value unless such time other evidence proves it wrong. I am waiting like everyone else for what he will reveal next. There is no trial underhand, just disclosure. There is no jury other than the court of public opinion. We each have our opinions. I'm as entitled to mine as you are to yours.

So you are the only one jumping to foregone conclusions here. I do however believe there was a coverup and it was a part of the divorce, based on what he has told us so far.

I see no reason to discredit his testimony, unlike you do.

You act as if you have a dog in this fight. I certainly don't.

Which makes one wonder if you're being paid to be a stooley for LDS Inc, to undermine Karran's credibility or anyone who advocates for him on a LDS website, or for merely sharing his material as I have done.

Nothing the Mormon church does surprises me anymore. Nothing.

[_Rosebud]

You act as if you have a dog in this fight. I certainly don't.

I have a dog in this fight. That's why I'm writing here, I guess. Maybe someone will read my thoughts and spread them. (Because I know I'm not jumping very far into the public Mormon fray again anytime soon.)

What I want is for Mormons to become educated about these things and to learn to think clearly and, when possible, have discernment. Some really ugly things are going down in Mormonism and kids get far too hurt far too often. The more skilled adults can get at interpreting what might really be going on rather than jumping to conclusions based on biases or lack of education or information, the better for children. Child abuse within Mormonism is the biggest mess we've got as far as I'm concerned and this Karren-Mikelsen thing looks like it might turn out to be a good public case study of the problem, if nothing else. (Again, poor girls!)

Karren referred to the 1991 Pace document so it looks like he's going to dive all the way into the mess for better or worse.

[_Res Ipsa]

AmyJo,

I don't understand your repeated attempts to lump me in with Tobin. I'm not the one who attacked your credibility. That was Tobin. I'm not the one who flat-out rejected Karren's story from the outset -- that was Tobin. I'm not the one who insinuated you slept with Karren -- that was Tobin.

As I've already explained to you, I was interested in whether you were personally acquainted with Karren because you repeatedly stated as fact things that, at this point, are just things Karren has claimed. Do I need to go back and copy your posts where you did this? It led me to think that you might have personal knowledge of the facts -- perhaps being a neighbor who had, for example, observed Karren having custody of his kids. Or a friend or relative who had actually seen the court orders. In my mind, that would count as bolstering Karren's story -- not as detracting from your credibility. I have no reason to doubt your truthfulness, even if you had some reason to be biased one way or another. I do think you are too trusting of some guy that makes a youtube video and a couple of posts, but that has nothing to do with your truthfulness.

You seem to draw some conclusions from that fact that I didn't call Tobin out over his conduct toward you. Frankly, I think you are a fully capable adult woman and don't need a man to come to your rescue. I think you proved that by handling him. He seems to have stomped off in a huff and you are still here. I'd call that a win.

For some reason, maybe because Tobin is AWOL so you don't have him to kick around, you're using me as your whipping boy. I don't get it. So far, you've insinuated that I am Tobin, that I'm in "cahoots" with Tobin, that I'm "personally involved" with Tobin, and now that I'm some sort of paid LDS shill. I don't get it.

by the way, given the experience you went through earlier in life, I think you do legitimately have a dog in this fight. That's not a bad thing. It doesn't discredit you. It does explain the passion with which you've approached the issue. And if Tobin had actually been reading your posts, he would have realized how silly his insinuations were. And if you stopped and thought for a few minutes, you'd see how making false insinuations about me to attack my motives is just as wrong as it was when Tobin did it to you.

[_Res Ipsa]

You act as if you have a dog in this fight. I certainly don't.

I have a dog in this fight. That's why I'm writing here, I guess. Maybe someone will read my thoughts and spread them. (Because I know I'm not jumping very far into the public Mormon fray again anytime soon.)

What I want is for Mormons to become educated about these things and to learn to think clearly and, when possible, have discernment. Some really ugly things are going down in Mormonism and kids get far too hurt far too often. The more skilled adults can get at interpreting what might really be going on rather than jumping to conclusions based on biases or lack of education or information, the better for children. Child abuse within Mormonism is the biggest mess we've got as far as I'm concerned and this Karren-Mikelsen thing looks like it might turn out to be a good public case study of the problem, if nothing else. (Again, poor girls!)

Karren referred to the 1991 Pace document so it looks like he's going to dive all the way into the mess for better or worse.

I think that's a legitimate dog to have. I don't have one. I like puzzles. I like to take a bunch of disorganized, disparate facts and try to figure out what they all mean. It's what led me out of Mormonism. It's also what I've enjoyed the most about my legal practice.

It's a shame that the parents didn't take the child to be evaluated at the time of the phone call. I think you could fairly place some blame on the LDS church for that.

[_Quasimodo]

That, Res Ipsa, was a great post! I think AmyJo may have been misunderstanding your good intentions. No one who knows you would ever equate you and Tobin.

Nicely handled!

[_Res Ipsa]

That, Res Ipsa, was a great post! I think AmyJo may have been misunderstanding your good intentions. No one who knows you would ever equate you and Tobin.

Nicely handled!

Thanks! Picture that knock down, drag out Tobin and I had over global warming. Now picture the "reveal" scene in Fight Club.... That's what it reminded me of.