Former Stake President Excommunicated for being a woman.

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

This is the kind of thing that results from Water Dog's bigotry:

https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comme ... her_had_a/

At the age of 18, I learned my mother had a brother, who I had never heard of, who was kicked out of the house and disowned after he informed them he was gay.

As a teenager, I was looking through old pictures and kept seeing this older guy, around 19 years old, who was always happy and playing with my mother. I assumed he was a family friend when they were younger. I asked my mother who he was and she got very quiet and defensive. I had to dig it out of her, but she grudgingly admitted his name is Terry and he came out as gay when he was in his late teens. I began questioning her almost angrily. I wanted to know where my uncle Terry was! She said that my grandparents had kicked him out of the house and had never spoken to him again, not even seen him in person, but that he had joined a show in Vegas where they cross dressed. My mother told me he still has a show there(we are 3rd gen Las Vegans), but would not tell me which show he was in and she never wanted to talk about him again. I couldn't find a single picture he wasn't ear to ear with the biggest smile. Apparently he changed his name and I couldn't figure it out. I am just so ashamed of the heritage I come from and am glad the bigotry ends with me. It's so confusing because I absolutely LOVE my grandparents, just adore them beyond words...yet they could do such a horrible things because of this God damn cult.

And then perusing the thread there were some links to Gay and crossdressing threads. I really think for anyone on the fence they ought to just go to those subreddits and read them. It really helps humanize the people you may think are mentally ill. They're just different. That's all.

https://www.reddit.com/r/gaybros/

https://www.reddit.com/r/rupaulsdragrace/

I'm sure there are more, but I'm not totally familiar with those subreddits and any related ones.

Truth in advertising here, by the way. I have a difficult time, even though I consider myself an advocate for the LGTBQRSTUV community, with all of that stuff. Can't help it. It's in me to feel uncomfortable with gender spectrum, homosexuality, cross dressing, whatever. I'm fairly certain it's a holdover from being raised as a Mormon and in living in a society that, at least in the 70's, 80's, and mostly 90's wasn't supportive of gay communities.

BUT.

I do believe everyone ought to be given as a starting point equality. It doesn't mean their ideas and behaviors can't be challenged, but they should have the human right of being equal under the law and given the same kind of considerations we take for granted.

- Doc

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

This is the kind of thing that results from Water Dog's bigotry

I'm honest about the objective fact that this man is a man, and somehow that translates into bigotry and asshole parenting? Makes sense. I'm now the guy who kicks his kids on the street. It's so refreshing to have civil dialogue like this.

You'e intolerant of the idea that gender doesn't have sharp biological boundaries. Your position that a biological basis for gender differences is what psychologists call an "essentialist" view of gender; the idea that men and women belong to fundamentally different categories that have some inherent basis or immutable essence, such that the categories have sharp and indisputable boundaries. Within your viewpoint it's hard to make sense of a mismatch between a person's gender identity and their perceived sex, if it's the biological basis for their assigned sex that's taken to reflect their true "essence." This, in turn, could support a more prejudicial attitude towards people who identify with a gender other than the one assigned at birth.

We have no idea what compels the subject of the OP to feel the way he does. We don't have a full genetic breakout, a hormonal workup, an in toto look at what makes him feel like a her. Just because he has a cockadoodle doesn't mean his brain is wired like a man's brain. There is a ton of scientific research and evidence that suggests gender, sexuality, and social constructs have gradations that blur the lines of our perceptions of them. Just because a dude has a dong doesn't mean he's in possession of all the genetic coding that places him within the normally accepted boundaries of maleness.

And that's the issue, as it has been with homosexuality. It's considered a perversion or mental illness when in reality it could just be a response to the way he's programmed and wired. Is he abnormal? Sure, technically. Should he have to conform to arbitrary standards of gender roles? I don't see why he does. I'm not him. I don't have his brain. I have no idea what's going on in there other than what he says is going on. To dismiss his existential experience, like you're doing, is prejudicial and bigoted. It is what it is.

- Doc

[_Lemmie]

what the hell do I know...

....by the way, still not a single shred of actual scientific evidence presented to support the idea that this male is actually a female.

The above two excerpts really sum up the issue in this thread, Water Dog. You DON'T know, and by the simplistic, inaccurate "summing up" in your second sentence, you have refused to learn anything at all about the situation.

I have to agree with Doc, you have exhibited some pretty disgusting levels of prejudice, intolerance and bigotry. I was willing to read your link, so why can't you do the same and try to learn about the issue by reading a few of the references other people have given?

[_Maksutov]

what the hell do I know...

....by the way, still not a single shred of actual scientific evidence presented to support the idea that this male is actually a female.

The above two excerpts really sum up the issue in this thread, Water Dog. You DON'T know, and by the simplistic, inaccurate "summing up" in your second sentence, you have refused to learn anything at all about the situation.

I have to agree with Doc, you have exhibited some pretty disgusting levels of prejudice, intolerance and bigotry. I was willing to read your link, so why can't you do the same and try to learn about the issue by reading a few of the references other people have given?

The dog is a product of conditioning. Give him time.

[Guest]

The dog is a product of conditioning. Give him time.

Excellent point! I really hope he paid attention to Doc's post:

Truth in advertising here, by the way. I have a difficult time, even though I consider myself an advocate for the LGTBQRSTUV community, with all of that stuff. Can't help it. It's in me to feel uncomfortable with gender spectrum, homosexuality, cross dressing, whatever. I'm fairly certain it's a holdover from being raised as a Mormon and in living in a society that, at least in the 70's, 80's, and mostly 90's wasn't supportive of gay communities.

BUT.

I do believe everyone ought to be given as a starting point equality. It doesn't mean their ideas and behaviors can't be challenged, but they should have the human right of being equal under the law and given the same kind of considerations we take for granted.

- Doc

Thank you for this Doc. Your willingness to look at your gut reactions and consider the source is admirable. Using your brain to raise above that and actively choose your path takes a lot of strength. Water Dog could learn a lot about how to be a real man from you--and hopefully get past that conditioning Maks pointed out!

[_DoubtingThomas]

I'm honest about the objective fact that this man is a man

Why did you ignore what I said? why are you ignoring the Oxford definition of gender?

By definition Gender means "Either of the two sexes (male and female), especially when considered with reference to social and cultural differences rather than biological ones" https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/gender

and it doesn't really matter. Words and definitions are created by humans, not by the universe, not by God. We create our own purpose and meaning. I honestly don't see a point in your argument, it is not like we are denying biology, we know the former stake president can't get pregnant, we know she doesn't have a menstrual cycle, we know she has a penis, we know she is stronger. No one is denying that. So what exactly is your problem?

[_Gadianton]

Water dog,

Can you imagine (no need to respond) any set of circumstances under which you would drink alcohol? How about marajuana? Is it conceivable you could ever be led into fornication? How about respond violently to someone -- maybe toward a real bad dude who did something horrible?

Now can you imagine Satan tempting you into thinking you are a woman or any set of circumstances whereby you would feel like a woman?

Here is your scientific proof that the SP is a woman.

What I think is interesting is that a woman has held the priesthood for so many years. Blessings that have healed, ordinations that are valid etc.

[_Maksutov]

What I think is interesting is that a woman has held the priesthood for so many years. Blessings that have healed, ordinations that are valid etc.

Indeed. And there was a same sex wedding in the Temple and the world didn't come to an end.

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/4494 ... ID-TV.html

[_Lemmie]

...thinking you are a woman or any set of circumstances whereby you would feel like a woman? Here is your scientific proof that the SP is a woman.

I get what you mean to say though, and I disagree. I do believe that a person could have an interest, or whatever one wants to call it, in changing genders.... It's actually not at all hard for me to imagine people having such a desire, especially in an environment where it is trendy and perceived to be attached to positive social feedback?

Your understanding is that Gad is talking about a "desire," especially if it is a trendy desire that can be faked in order to get positive social feedback.

This is like asking whether a white person would ever be temped to be black.

Gadianton, you made your point.

[_Lemmie]

I'm not going to neuter my own identity, the identify of my culture, the culture of my children, so he can feel good about himself.

This I think is a key point. You keeps emphasizing that you are not directly harming the SP in the OP with your words here, so why doesn't it work both ways? How would it "neuter" your "own identity" if the person in the OP "[felt] good about himself," Water Dog???

How can you feel so threatened simply by the idea of--not the acquaintanceship with, not any interaction with, not even any day to day knowledge of, but just the IDEA of---another person feeling at ease with a different situation that you feel "neutered" by it??