Has John Gee Been "Booted" from the Maxwell Institute?

[_Shulem]

It seems to me, however, and here I am following the observations of others as well as my own, that Gee has let up on the gas pedal on his Book of Abraham apologetics in recent times. I am not suggesting that he believes in the Book of Abraham any less or that he feels it is any less an ancient text than he has always felt, but he does seem to have treated the whole thing like a tiresome slog lately.

He's not happy having to discuss the Book of Abraham. He's done. He's had it. He can't take it anymore.

Now it's time for him to settle in and make some adjustments. If those don't work out and he's unable to reconcile things then there is a good chance that apostasy is on the horizon.

[_Lemmie]

What surprises me is the requirement that he now, after 15 years or so has to teach while holding an endowed research chair. Who changed the conditions of his appointment? Was that compromise necessary in order to convince the ANEL department to take him on?

According to the Maxwell annual report on Gee, at least a month of last year's efforts was funded separately by the H Donl Peterson family even though he spent it researching Book of Abraham papyri sources, so maybe the Chair hasn't been fully covering his salary. After all, If I recall correctly from a thread here, wasn't half of Peterson's salary also covered by the Maxwell Institute? Maybe the Maxwell no longer wanted to pick up any of the tab for Gee's salary.

[_Fence Sitter]

That's a good questions, IHAQ. I would say that at the beginning this was most definitely the case. It seems to me, however, and here I am following the observations of others as well as my own, that Gee has let up on the gas pedal on his Book of Abraham apologetics in recent times. I am not suggesting that he believes in the Book of Abraham any less or that he feels it is any less an ancient text than he has always felt, but he does seem to have treated the whole thing like a tiresome slog lately.

Maybe this will afford him the opportunity to focus on other LDS texts more than he has in the past, thus allowing him to remain faithful to his charge as the William "Bill" Gay Professor.

I suspect that the recent volume from the JSPP on the Book of Abraham is a strong clue why he is letting up. Not only does it not support his (following Nibley) theories on the creation of the Book of Abraham, it argues against it in support of people like Smith, Cook, Vogel & Metcalfe. While Gee may not care what non believers say about his work, it has to be a tough pill to swallow seeing a book come out which is produced by the Church's historian's office contradicting at the most fundamental level, his life's work on the Book of Abraham. His recent offering on the Book of Abraham, An Introduction to the Book of Abraham offered nothing new except feeble attempts to distance the Hor scroll from a missing scroll, attempts Vogel quickly put to rest. It is ironic how Gee, Bob Smith et al loudly condemn anyone who is not an Egyptologist for publishing on the Book of Abraham, yet when it comes to any their proffered arguments out of the field of Egyptology, they utter fail. See Gee's two inks fiaco, or his total failure at math in his length of the scroll papers. As a historian Gee is getting soundly thrashed by Vogel. In textual analysis Hauglid is also showing Gee his short comings.

Hauglid and Jensen are doing public presentations on the volume where they say Joseph Smith couldn't actually translate Egyptian, we have the papyri from which Joseph Smith produced the Book of Abraham, and we as a church need to rethink what the word translation means in regards to Joseph Smith's work on the Book of Abraham. Think about that, if the church changes it's views on this and switches to a catalyst theory for the production of the Book of Abraham, there won't be a whole lot of demand for faithful Mormon Egyptologists.

[_Shulem]

if the church changes it's views on this and switches to a catalyst theory for the production of the Book of Abraham, there won't be a whole lot of demand for faithful Mormon Egyptologists.

The church essay pretty much reveals that the church is adopting the catalyst theory. The missing roll theory is dead. So, Gee can take his ball and go home.

[_Gadianton]

I suspect that the recent volume from the JSPP on the Book of Abraham is a strong clue why he is letting up. Not only does it not support his (following Nibley) theories on the creation of the Book of Abraham, it argues against it in support of people like Smith, Cook, Vogel & Metcalfe. While Gee may not care what non believers say about his work, it has to be a tough pill to swallow seeing a book come out which is produced by the Church's historian's office contradicting at the most fundamental level, his life's work on the Book of Abraham. His recent offering on the Book of Abraham, An Introduction to the Book of Abraham offered nothing new except feeble attempts to distance the Hor scroll from a missing scroll, attempts Vogel quickly put to rest. It is ironic how Gee, Bob Smith et al loudly condemn anyone who is not an Egyptologist for publishing on the Book of Abraham, yet when it comes to any their proffered arguments out of the field of Egyptology, they utter fail. See Gee's two inks fiaco, or his total failure at math in his length of the scroll papers. As a historian Gee is getting soundly thrashed by Vogel. In textual analysis Hauglid is also showing Gee his short comings.

Hauglid and Jensen are doing public presentations on the volume where they say Joseph Smith couldn't actually translate Egyptian, we have the papyri from which Joseph Smith produced the Book of Abraham, and we as a church need to rethink what the word translation means in regards to Joseph Smith's work on the Book of Abraham. Think about that, if the church changes it's views on this and switches to a catalyst theory for the production of the Book of Abraham, there won't be a whole lot of demand for faithful Mormon Egyptologists.

A fantastic contribution Fence Sitter, this has me rethinking this entire episode from the beginning. Doctor Scratch, what is your professional opinion here?

[_Shulem]

Hauglid and Jensen are doing public presentations on the volume where they say Joseph Smith couldn't actually translate Egyptian, we have the papyri from which Joseph Smith produced the Book of Abraham, and we as a church need to rethink what the word translation means in regards to Joseph Smith's work on the Book of Abraham.

I just finished watching that entire presentation. Very interesting. You can see how these two scholars can see the writing on the wall and that the writing is not favorable for the church, at, all.

[_I have a question]

So Gee has spent 15 years of his life/career doing research funded by a member of the seventy which resulted in a Book Of Abraham apologetic that is now being completely refuted by the Church....do I have that right?

[_Fence Sitter]

So Gee has spent 15 years of his life/career doing research funded by a member of the seventy which resulted in a Book Of Abraham apologetic that is now being completely refuted by the Church....do I have that right?

Not quite.

A lot of the work that Gee has done, like Nibley before him, is to show how there are ancient Abrahamic parallels in Egypt to the same Abraham we find in the Book of Abraham and then try and claim that this is information not available to Joseph Smith. Never mind they haven't done any actual investigation into the 19th century possible sources (I wish Metcalfe would publish what he has on this) for Joseph Smith on Abraham. So Gee and Muhlestein have thrown out a lot of widely scattered ancient Egyptian sources that reference Abraham and claim this is proof that the text Joseph Smith made up is actually based on a text that might of existed in ancient Egypt sometime somewhere. As long as no one produces evidence that everything that is found inside the Book of Abraham could be sourced to the 19th century, Gee can keep on throwing out this "you can't show how he could have known about this" parallel type of shoddy scholarship.

But his main hobby horse has been to claim that Joseph Smith could and did actually translate the Book of Abraham from the missing portion of the papyri, and that he did this (in part) before the KEP was created. He wants to demonstrate that the KEP was merely an ill-fated W.W.Phelp driven attempt to reverse engineer a translation of Egyptian using a no longer extant original translation of the Book of Abraham chapters 1-2:18 Distancing Joseph Smith from the KEP allows Gee to argue that Joseph Smith actually did translate the Book of Abraham from an Egyptian version on the missing papyri. That leaves the need for a faithful Egyptologist to reconstruct how that might of happened and is the basis for his Book of Abraham work.

What is taking a back seat now is the need for a LDS trained Egyptologist who can demonstrate how the missing portions of the papyri might of contained an Egyptian text version of the Book of Abraham. If Joseph Smith couldn't translate Egyptian, there is no need for an Egyptologist who can confirm a traditional translation effort. And, if 19th century sources can be produced covering all of the Abrahamic material in the PoGP, then they will have nothing left to do at all.

[_Gadianton]

Fence Sitter,

Tom and Physics Guy brought to our attention that Gee has a more than solid publication record aside from any apologetics. How would you say the "chair" has divided his routine scholarship vs. apologetics, 70% - 30% ?

[_Fence Sitter]

Fence Sitter,

Tom and Physics Guy brought to our attention that Gee has a more than solid publication record aside from any apologetics. How would you say the "chair" has divided his routine scholarship vs. apologetics, 70% - 30% ?

No idea Gad. Let me be clear about what I said regarding the emerging place of the Book of Abraham catalyst theory leaving him nothing to do. Obviously he can and will continue to publish in the field of Egyptology but his place as the LDS scholar expert on the Book of Abraham who the uninformed faithful point to, to use to prop up their testimonies, is fading and unfortunately for him, he is being pushed out by his own..