Other Religious Forgeries

[Physics Guy]

I’ve wondered why Smith even bothered with the plates. They put his scheme at risk of discovery—he would only be able to laugh off the brick over whiskey so many times—and they unnecessarily complicated his claimed prophethood, if not actually undermining it by making him a channel for mere ancient humans rather than for God directly.

Kishkumen’s idea seems plausible, that the plates were first made for a different kind of hoax and then adapted to a prophet act. But I can see some synergy in the scheme that might not have been obvious initially.

Even if nobody at all had actually believed that Smith’s unseen plates were genuine, they established the expectation that guys who claimed revelations had to have a prop of some kind. Smith’s story about having translated from plates is more interesting, simply as a story, than any bald “God spoke to me in a dream” would have been. So if anyone wanted to compete with Smith, they were going to have to bring their own plates, or something equivalent.

Claiming to have ancient plates raised the bar for competitors. Furthermore the artist who was already working the area (Smith) was obviously going to be vigilant. Once his own plates were safely back in heaven he would be quick to expose the phoniness of any props his competitors brought: Smith’s plates only had to evade disproof by the marks, but the Johnny-come-lately props of competitors would have had to evade disproof by Smith. That thought might not have occurred to every potential competitor but it would surely have occurred to any dangerous ones, and it would have deterred them.

I don’t know whether the deterrence of competition would have made the plates a worthwhile gambit from the start, but if Smith already had his gimmick plates for whatever reason when he started his prophet scam then there would have been good reason to emphasize them for a while—and then safely get rid of them.

[IHAQ]

On the topic of religious forgeries...

...according to a 2002 report by Deseret News, which quoted Latter-day Saints Church historian Richard Turley, who said that the "church had discovered 446 Hofmann forgeries in its collections."

https://www.grunge.com/353307/the-stunn ... paign=clip

It appears the Church lacked the ability to spot a fake.

[Kishkumen]

Unbelievable. But you have to admit that the claim of Joseph's "bullshitting" and psychological resiliency somewhat go against the proposition that real plates are rock-bottom foundation. Or is that incorrect? Seems like he could sell an ice maker to an Eskimo.

ran some quick numbers and seems like the tile-brick could weigh about 17 pounds.

There should be a sequel called The Lost Witness.

LOL! Yes, there are several accounts out there of Smith owning up to this or that person that he was consciously aware of his deception. He definitely was caught in the act. And you are right, this is what makes Witnesses incomplete. It can’t go too far in ruffling the feathers of those who earnestly believe, including its makers.

Still, I think the movie will do a fine job of capturing aspects of the contemporary believing experience.

When I think of Smith, one model I appeal to is Ronald Hutton’s description of the shaman as the one whose performances make the invisible manifest in the world. A shaman does have to be a shrewd bullshitter because such a job is inherently dangerous. When there are problems or things don’t pan out, you better have a damn convincing explanation or you may find yourself 6 feet under.

[IHAQ]

Smith was infinitely more talented as an on the fly bullshitter and also vastly more psychologically resilient than Hofmann

A fascinating point, considering something I'd read just the other day. It turns out, MormonThink has an awesome entry on the witnesses.

http://www.mormonthink.com/witnessesweb.htm

An anecdote touching this subject used to be related by William T. Hussey and Azel Vandruver. They were notorious wags, and were intimately acquainted with Smith. They called as his friends at his residence, and strongly importuned him for an inspection of the "golden book," offering to take upon themselves the risk of the death-penalty denounced. Of course, the request could not be complied with; but they were permitted to go to the chest with its owner, and see where the thing was, and observe its shape and size, concealed under a piece of thick canvas. Smith, with his accustomed solemnity of demeanor, positively persisting in his refusal to uncover it, Hussey became impetuous, and (suiting his action to his word) ejaculated, "Egad! I'll see the critter, live or die!" And stripping off the cover, a large tile-brick was exhibited. But Smith's fertile imagination was equal to the emergency. He claimed that his friends had been sold by a trick of his; and "treating" with the customary whisky hospitalities, the affair ended in good-nature.

Unbelievable. But you have to admit that the claim of Joseph's "bullshitting" and psychological resiliency somewhat go against the proposition that real plates are rock-bottom foundation. Or is that incorrect? Seems like he could sell an ice maker to an Eskimo.

ran some quick numbers and seems like the tile-brick could weigh about 17 pounds.

There should be a sequel called The Lost Witness.

I haven't heard this anecdote before. Wow!

[Themis]

Claiming to have ancient plates raised the bar for competitors. Furthermore the artist who was already working the area (Smith) was obviously going to be vigilant. Once his own plates were safely back in heaven he would be quick to expose the phoniness of any props his competitors brought: Smith’s plates only had to evade disproof by the marks, but the Johnny-come-lately props of competitors would have had to evade disproof by Smith. That thought might not have occurred to every potential competitor but it would surely have occurred to any dangerous ones, and it would have deterred them.

While Joseph was wary of having followers try to do what he did, he didn't seem to try disproving others outside of his group. Joseph grew up in a world of magical thinking and hidden treasures. He believed in things like hidden treasures and records contained on metal plates. The kinder-hook plates, created to deceive Joseph, were accepted as genuine by Joseph. He even started the process of translating them and telling the world they were further records of Book of Mormon peoples. He pretended he could translate a Greek document presented to him to trick him into pretending to be able to translate unknown languages. Joseph was good at spinning everything into his prophet/translator scam, and didn't seem very critical of outside attempts. He jumped on the papyri to create the Book of Abraham.

[Dr Moore]

Plates as a tool for misdirection would have made all the buzz about the "gold Bible" work to Joseph's advantage. First, marketing. Second, valid excuse to hide from people while finalizing the story.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

tHe PlAtEs wErE tHe BeSt wAy

> didn't use the plates

damned brilliant testimony you thick-skulled Mormonkey.

- Doc

https://m.jpost.com/archaeology/israel- ... pts-662148

Yeah. 2,000 y.o. scrolls. MG is thick as oatmeal.

- Doc

[Moksha]

I don't think Moses existed as the Bible claims and so I have my doubts regarding God carving on stone tablets.

The imagery of God folding space so he could beam the stone tablets, from the command deck of the Kolobian Space Station to Mount Sinai, is delightful. Why spoil it?

[dastardly stem]

Religion is just scam. Joseph's charisma and motivation were the skills he needed to make religion work. He was an adventurous youngster who saw opportunity and took it. His lies weren't lies to him. They were exactly what God needed to inspire people. He used them as such. It was good to make people think he had ancient plates, uncovered in a similar way he sought treasure. He imagined them and it was God filling his imagination and God knew he needed them. It was no lie to him to spend time pounding out plates, if that's what he did, because it was God who showed them to him and urged him that he needed them. When Harris excused himself from the 3 witnesses experience because of his sins, there was plenty genuine there. He thought he was holding them up as they began a meditative prayer. When Joseph found him, as the story goes, and he quickly shouted he has seen enough, shaking himself loose of the visionary trance, he thought, "well yeah, I saw what Joseph kept saying he had and God wanted me to see them too". It seems, in a superstitious world, you can feel pretty confident you have seen something if you've seen it in vision because it's God showing it to you. People hear his voice because they actually think the imagined words that sound in their head is God.

I don't know my point other than to say if the religious system was broken or more questionable in Joseph's day there'd be no Mormonism. But how could religion ever have been if we didn't have the majority of human history showered in superstitions? Focusing in on Joseph's scam helps explain the problem, but it also seems to miss the point. he was doing what he had to do in a religious world, as he saw it.