Fact Checking Nelson's "Doors Of Death" light aircraft near death experience

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Re: Fact Checking Nelson's "Doors Of Death" light aircraft near death experience

Post by Res Ipsa »

dastardly stem wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 1:35 pm
Piecing this all together, here's what we end up with:

I think it's fair to say Nelson did fly on November 12 or 11th 1976 to St George, UT. I'd guess he'd flown there before on a small plane. Its likely he was never comfortable flying on those small planes, and imagined after watching a number of movies from his youth up what it'd be like to be in a plane that was going down. He likely had been through various degrees of turbulence many times and had seen or heard a number of people cry out as he himself clutched arm rests but attempted to remain cool and collected. He then imagined, "If I was going to die, it'd be really cool if I was as calm as the cucumber because it'd show my faith that God really did love me." He dreamed the incident and went over it again and again. He was cert something crazy like that was possible. After years of putting himself in that place, the story once imagined became real. A decade or so of imagining it and seeing himself as victor he ended up with vivid memories of spiraling down in a plane, a woman screaming, and since he had to have lived through the ordeal, he imagined that this spiraling plane corrected itself and it landed safely unexpectedly in a farmers field.

After some years without much detail he alludes to the dreamed event and in so doing realizes it really does make him look good to a fawning audience. After the story caught some fanfare and by the time Ms. Dew recorded the story, he had matched this event to an actual inconsequential sounding flight that he recalled. He knew for certain, by this time, his fawning audience weren't concerned about whether something really happened or not. They just wanted to be delighted by typical sounding feats of heroism and poise.
I'd agree that's one possible story consistent with the facts. But there are lots at this point. Here's another.

Nelson was a heart surgeon, and appears to have been fairly high profile, serving on professional committtees, etc. In his life, he's done lots of career-related flying.

In 1971, he is called as head of the Sunday School. He talks about attending area conferences, so sounds like more flying in addition to his professional travel.

In 1976, he flies to Dixie University to get the opening prayer at an event.

In 1984 he is called as an Apostle. Now he's a much higher profile speaker at church events and at General Conference.

In 1985, we have the earliest evidence of his use of the story, at an institute fireside. A copy of the publication is not available on line, and we don't know whether it is a transcript of what he said or a summary.

In 2003, we have a book (his biography?) that recounts the story, citing the 1985 publication (?). This is the first version we have access to.

The first problem we have in trying to understand his narrative is the unreliability of eye-witness testimony. None of us are trusty witnesses to events we observe, especially under disorienting circumstances. Whatever happened, it probably happened relative quickly, although it would be common for the perception of passing time to slow down. He reports fire on one side of the plane and that the propellor on the other side stopped and restarted. He also reports the stereotypical life flashing before one's eyes, as well as a sense of calm. And he remembers the plane being close to the ground when it pulled out of the dive. The chances that he perceived and accurately understood what actually occurred from his own observations are pretty low.

The second problem is that his story is likely to be a mish-mash of what he saw and what he heard from the other passengers. We can't tell whether he saw what happened on both sides of the plane or whether he saw one side and someone told him about the other. In other words, the story doesn't separate out what he saw from what somebody else described to him.

The third is the passage of time. If he told this story to friends and family over nine years, his memory of the events will have changed. That's how memory works. It is incredibly easy to alter someone's memories. See the work of Elizabeth Loftus. In discussing the incident with others, their comments or questions could easily be incorporated as part of the memory of the event. For example, it may be accurate that the pilot announced that they were half way, and that he thought (or a passenger said) "ah, the point of no return." Or that comment could have been introduced by someone he was telling the story to. That comment then becomes part of the way he tells the story and, eventually, he remembers that the pilot said the whole thing. Again, not unusual. It's how brains work.

So, here is a possible version of what happened. He caught a flight from Salt Lake City to St. George on November 12, 1976. Shortly after the pilot announced that they were half-way there, one of the engines suffered a flame out. Either Nelson or other passengers see flames shoot out from the engine. The plane begins to lose altitude -- one or more passengers, including a woman, are scared and scream. Either Nelson misunderstands or someone misdescribes what happens with the other engine. Nelson has his life flashing before his eyes experience and feels calm. (Not an unusual reaction.) The pilot pulls the plane out of the dive. They land safely in a "field."

No notice is given to the NTSB because the incident doesn't qualify as an "accident" under the applicable definitions and it does not fall within any of the categories of incident that require notice. No report is filed with the NTSB, as filing a report is required only for "accidents" or for incidents at the request of the NTSB. No report is made to the FAA, as their accident reporting system is voluntary. Even if the NTSB were notified, not all incidents are reported in the NTSB database, and at one point a bunch of incidents were removed. Even if the incident had been voluntarily reported to the FAA, it's online database only goes back to 1978. Therefore, it is unreasonable to expect that we would be able to find on-line evidence of the crash. Any conclusion about the absence of an article in the local papers is pure speculation on our part.

As Nelson tells the story to friends and family, it becomes less accurate. And, as we see over and over again with these kinds of anecdotes, they become more interesting. It's likely that the extent of flame, the amount of screaming, the closeness to the ground, etc. are all exaggerated over time. He constructs a story about what the pilot did based on his own misunderstanding of what happened. But the changes reflect his changing memory of events, not an intention to distort the story.

When Nelson becomes an apostle, he has to step up his speaking game. The big 15 seem pretty big on using personal, faith promoting stories. That's not surprising, as stories are what people are attracted to and remember. So, he begins to look for things that have happened in his past for his own faith-promoting stories. As he reflects on the airplane story, he wonders why he felt calm when others panicked. And he has an epiphany -- the reason has noting to do with him as a person. The reason is that he doesn't have to be afraid of death because he knows what will happen when he dies.

He uses the story at the fireside, and gets some positive feedback. And, voila, a faith promoting personal story is born.

And that's just one other reasonable conclusion.

As humans with human brains, we have to deal with two inconvenient facts. First, anecdotal evidence (or, as we say, eyewitness testimony) is inherently unreliable because of how our brains work. Second, our brains find anecdotal evidence highly believable. We want to hear people's stories. We want to believe people's stories. We remember stories.

The point of Nelson's story isn't that it makes him look good. It's that his audience doesn't have to fear death, because they know what happens after death. Each and every Mormon need not fear death either, because they have the same knowledge he does.
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Re: Fact Checking Nelson's "Doors Of Death" light aircraft near death experience

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Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 5:19 pm
Is there a reasonable reason why an emergency landing in a field wouldn't merit a report in 1976?

- Doc
Yes. There is a defined list of "incidents" that require notice to the NTSB. "Emergency landing in a field isn't one of them." (given, of course, that I can only find the rules from 1988 forward on line.)
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Re: Fact Checking Nelson's "Doors Of Death" light aircraft near death experience

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Doctor Steuss wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 5:36 pm
Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 1:00 am
I signed up for a free trial at newspapers.com and have been searching the millard county chronicle archives, and any news from millard county, for the last hour. There's no mention of Nelson's Big Adventure.

- Doc
To me, this is the biggest potential evidence against it.

Up until about 10 years ago (when the paper unfortunately finally went defunct), my parents subscribed to a newspaper from a county in Utah a little bit smaller than Millard. I think it was published every two weeks (If I recall correctly).

Very often, something as simple as an out-of-town family visiting relatives would warrant a few sentences (if not a full paragraph) in the happenings.

Car crashes, or 4-wheeler accidents would almost always get a teaser on the front page. Anything that involved dispatch of any of the (volunteer) fire departments would get front page billing, and a picture. An airplane making an emergency landing in a field would have definitely made it into the paper, and almost certainly front page.
Speculation ain't evidence. The easiest way to be wrong is to imagine what you think must have happened.
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Re: Fact Checking Nelson's "Doors Of Death" light aircraft near death experience

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Dr Moore wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 6:21 pm
This page shows departing flights from SLC in 1975. It appears only 2 options might have been possible:
http://www.departedflights.com/SLC75intro.html
1) Sky West (via Cedar City)
2) Hughes Airwest (to Cedar City, unclear if they had a connection to SGU)


And this page shows departing flights from St George in 1979. Only one option: Sky West -- the route to SLC via Cedar City.
http://www.departedflights.com/SGU79intro.html

So it appears that if Nelson's flight originated in SLC, then it had to be Sky West, via Cedar City. Based on the appearance that only Sky West flew in/out of SGU.

Here are the detailed flight schedules to St George:
http://www.departedflights.com/SGU79p1.html
The hop from Cedar City is quite short, no? What peak altitude would that leg reach? We need enough altitude for a rapid descent to extinguish an engine fire!

If this engine failure was on the first leg, SLC > CDC, then what plane did they use to connect through from CDC to SGU, in order for Nelson to deliver the invocation at Kerr's inauguration on-time?
Last edited by Dr Moore on Wed Mar 31, 2021 8:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Fact Checking Nelson's "Doors Of Death" light aircraft near death experience

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Res Ipsa wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 5:11 pm
Thanks, Dr. W. I did some poking around and finally found the official taxonomy guides used by the NTSB. "Flameout" is used as a type of Power Plant In Flight Shutdown. It is not treated as a "fire" in the official taxonomy. The difference is important under the regs (https://ecfr.io/Title-49/Section-830.5), as a flameout of one engine does not require NTSB notification, while an engine fire does. I found pictures of flameouts that showed visible flame trailing the engine. If occurred on the flight was a flameout in one engine, it does not appear that any NTSB reports would be required under the post-1988 regulations.
As described above, a "flame-out" just means that the flame in the combustion chambers of a jet engine goes out (extinguishes) and the engine loses thrust. There is no (sustained) flame out of the rear of the engine in this case, because there is no flame in the combustion chambers. Assuming the crew gets the engine started again, and were able to continue the flight and land safely, there would be no need for a report.

Yellow flames coming from the rear of a stationary jet engine most likely are from a tail pipe fire, also described above. Images of these events can be quite spectacular, especially at night. Since they normally happen during start-up on the ground, they are of often photographed, and thereafter show up on the internet.

If you saw yellow flames coming out of the back of a jet that was in flight, chances are you were looking at a military jet using its afterburner(s) - there is one on each engine. Afterburners simply dump raw fuel into the exhaust pipes of military fighter jet engines. There is a rapid increase in kinetic energy as the liquid fuel mixes with oxygen and combusts to greatly increase thrust (more like a rocket). Afterburner use must be limited because they consume fuel at a tremendous rate. However, if one needs the additional speed in combat, it's good to have them back there.

So far we are talking about jets only.

The plane involved Rusty's imagined story apparently had two an air cooled piston engines. These are designed to be tough, reliable and relatively expensive low speed engines that normally run between about 2,200 and 2,500 rpm. Their failure modes are entirely different from jet engines. They can fail catastrophically by throwing a rod, for example. You can also have less drastic failures such as a cracked cylinder "jug" or a cylinder head. Most common problems in flight are because of water or dirt in the fuel.

As to fuel; piston engines use avgas - normally 100-120 octane. It's highly flammable and also expensive. Some newer light planes can be operate on automotive premium unleaded.

Commercial jets use Jet A. Military jets use JP8. Jet fuel is more like a #1 diesel or kerosene. It's vapor pressure is lower and it's much harder to ignite.
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Re: Fact Checking Nelson's "Doors Of Death" light aircraft near death experience

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DrW wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 6:59 pm
As described above, a "flame-out" just means that the flame in the combustion chambers of a jet engine goes out (extinguishes) and the engine loses thrust. There is no (sustained) flame out of the rear of the engine in this case, because there is no flame in the combustion chambers. Assuming the crew gets the engine started again, and were able to continue the flight and land safely, there would be no need for a report.
Nelson described nothing like a flameout, if I understand your description. He said burning fuel had been splattered all over.
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Re: Fact Checking Nelson's "Doors Of Death" light aircraft near death experience

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DrW wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 6:59 pm
Res Ipsa wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 5:11 pm
Thanks, Dr. W. I did some poking around and finally found the official taxonomy guides used by the NTSB. "Flameout" is used as a type of Power Plant In Flight Shutdown. It is not treated as a "fire" in the official taxonomy. The difference is important under the regs (https://ecfr.io/Title-49/Section-830.5), as a flameout of one engine does not require NTSB notification, while an engine fire does. I found pictures of flameouts that showed visible flame trailing the engine. If occurred on the flight was a flameout in one engine, it does not appear that any NTSB reports would be required under the post-1988 regulations.
As described above, a "flame-out" just means that the flame in the combustion chambers of a jet engine goes out (extinguishes) and the engine loses thrust. There is no (sustained) flame out of the rear of the engine in this case, because there is no flame in the combustion chambers. Assuming the crew gets the engine started again, and were able to continue the flight and land safely, there would be no need for a report.

Yellow flames coming from the rear of a stationary jet engine most likely are from a tail pipe fire, also described above. Images of these events can be quite spectacular, especially at night. Since they normally happen during start-up on the ground, they are of often photographed, and thereafter show up on the internet.

If you saw yellow flames coming out of the back of a jet that was in flight, chances are you were looking at a military jet using its afterburner(s) - there is one on each engine. Afterburners simply dump raw fuel into the exhaust pipes of military fighter jet engines. There is a rapid increase in kinetic energy as the liquid fuel mixes with oxygen and combusts to greatly increase thrust (more like a rocket). Afterburner use must be limited because they consume fuel at a tremendous rate. However, if one needs the additional speed in combat, it's good to have them back there.

So far we are talking about jets only.

The plane involved Rusty's imagined story apparently had two an air cooled piston engines. These are designed to be tough, reliable and relatively expensive low speed engines that normally run between about 2,200 and 2,500 rpm. Their failure modes are entirely different from jet engines. They can fail catastrophically by throwing a rod, for example. You can also have less drastic failures such as a cracked cylinder "jug" or a cylinder head. Most common problems in flight are because of water or dirt in the fuel.

As to fuel; piston engines use avgas - normally 100-120 octane. It's highly flammable and also expensive. Some newer light planes can be operate on automotive premium unleaded.

Commercial jets use Jet A. Military jets use JP8. Jet fuel is more like a #1 diesel or kerosene. It's vapor pressure is lower and it's much harder to ignite.
No chance he was flying in a turboprop?
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Re: Fact Checking Nelson's "Doors Of Death" light aircraft near death experience

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Dr Moore wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 7:11 pm
DrW wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 6:59 pm
As described above, a "flame-out" just means that the flame in the combustion chambers of a jet engine goes out (extinguishes) and the engine loses thrust. There is no (sustained) flame out of the rear of the engine in this case, because there is no flame in the combustion chambers. Assuming the crew gets the engine started again, and were able to continue the flight and land safely, there would be no need for a report.
Nelson described nothing like a flameout, if I understand your description. He said burning fuel had been splattered all over.
That is because, by his description, he was most likely in an air cooled piston engine light twin (not a jet, and most likely not a turbo prop, or there would have been a co-pilot). If piston engines suffered a catastrophic engine failure, as mentioned in my last post above, they can throw crankcase oil and hydraulic fluid, possibly mixed with fuel, onto the nacelle, wings and fuselage.

Before speculating much further, I would suggest we find out what kind of equipment Sky West was flying on the SLC to St. George routes back then. I was flying Air West in the mid-1970s and they were using mainly turbo props and pure jets on the routes from Washington State to SLC. Turbo props are gas turbine engines that have the same basic internals as turbojets but produce thrust by driving a prop connected via a gear box to the turbine shaft.
Last edited by DrW on Wed Mar 31, 2021 7:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Fact Checking Nelson's "Doors Of Death" light aircraft near death experience

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DrW wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 7:34 pm
Before speculating much further, I would suggest we try to find out what kind of equipment Sky West was flying on the SLC to St. George routes back then. I was flying Air West in the mid-1970s and they were using mainly turbo props and pure jets on the routes from Washington State to SLC. Turbo props are gas turbine engines that have the same basic internals as turbojets but produce thrust by driving a prop connected via a gear box to the turbine shaft.
Check the links in my post above -- I think you can see the aircraft flown in the old fleets. Skywest's website also has a neat historical timeline. For the year 1976, that timeline shows a photo of several of its planes.
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Re: Fact Checking Nelson's "Doors Of Death" light aircraft near death experience

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They land safely in a "field."
And yet he still made it to his speaking appointment on time?

Corporate had to know what was going on or how did they get his limo to the field so efficiently? And if corporate knew what was going on, they'd have a medical team there and it's really hard to believe he would have been right on time for speaking.

And not have noted the incident to anyone that day at the speaking event.
We can't take farmers and take all their people and send them back because they don't have maybe what they're supposed to have. They get rid of some of the people who have been there for 25 years and they work great and then you throw them out and they're replaced by criminals.
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