Is the Book of Mormon Divinely Inspired?

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Markk
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Re: Is the Book of Mormon Divinely Inspired?

Post by Markk »

Marcus wrote...I think 'different permissions' is a way to obfuscate the superiority some Mormons seem to maintain. And yes, I was with you on your explanation right up until this:
"These eternal laws are eternal truths and it would mean their are different truths for different peoples."
He said he gives different permissions to different churches, in my mind that would mean the concept of the LDS eternal truths would make these truths subjective. I was not taught that in the church at all....this is basically what I was taught
The plan proposed by God for the government of men and women in their earthly career was "based upon eternal laws that always have been and always will be operative." Since all forms of matter and energy are controlled by laws, logic tells us that a plan formulated by an eternal and intelligent being must be composed of laws. 2 Many of these laws were the same as those obeyed in the spirit world, and they are basically the same as the ones we shall have opportunity to obey throughout eternity. Thus the Gospel plan was laid upon a foundation of eternal truth. Among the laws to which all who come to earth were to be subject are faith, repentance, baptism, confirmation, love, charity, purity, industry, honesty, and many other Gospel principles, ordinances and eternal realities.

Hunter, Milton R.. Gospel Through the Ages . Deseret Book Company. Kindle Edition.
I was taught the plan of salvation was for all HF children....not that he had different plans for different people which is what I gathered from MG stated HF gives different permissions to different folks.
Marcus wrote...I've been out a while but my understanding is slightly different in that in my opinion they think 'eternal truths' are the same for everyone, and the 'eternal truths,' by definition, mean the Mormon church is the correct path and all other paths are lesser. I did not hear 'different truths for different peoples' except in the sense that if different people believed different truths it was because they were wrong and would eventually have to accept the Mormon version to progress eternally. That's my objection to labeling Mormons Christians, because they basically believe they are the only real Christians, and everyone one else is doing it wrong. To me, that puts the power into the institution instead of into the hands of god.
I think we are saying the same thing, maybe you misunderstood what I wrote, maybe I was not clear. Although, when you wrote that "all other paths are lesser" I was taught "all other paths were wrong."
Marcus
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Re: Is the Book of Mormon Divinely Inspired?

Post by Marcus »

Markk wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2024 3:04 am
Marcus wrote...I think 'different permissions' is a way to obfuscate the superiority some Mormons seem to maintain. And yes, I was with you on your explanation right up until this:
"These eternal laws are eternal truths and it would mean their are different truths for different peoples."
He said he gives different permissions to different churches, in my mind that would mean the concept of the LDS eternal truths would make these truths subjective. I was not taught that in the church at all....this is basically what I was taught
The plan proposed by God for the government of men and women in their earthly career was "based upon eternal laws that always have been and always will be operative." Since all forms of matter and energy are controlled by laws, logic tells us that a plan formulated by an eternal and intelligent being must be composed of laws. 2 Many of these laws were the same as those obeyed in the spirit world, and they are basically the same as the ones we shall have opportunity to obey throughout eternity. Thus the Gospel plan was laid upon a foundation of eternal truth. Among the laws to which all who come to earth were to be subject are faith, repentance, baptism, confirmation, love, charity, purity, industry, honesty, and many other Gospel principles, ordinances and eternal realities.

Hunter, Milton R.. Gospel Through the Ages . Deseret Book Company. Kindle Edition.
I was taught the plan of salvation was for all HF children....not that he had different plans for different people which is what I gathered from MG stated HF gives different permissions to different folks.
Marcus wrote...I've been out a while but my understanding is slightly different in that in my opinion they think 'eternal truths' are the same for everyone, and the 'eternal truths,' by definition, mean the Mormon church is the correct path and all other paths are lesser. I did not hear 'different truths for different peoples' except in the sense that if different people believed different truths it was because they were wrong and would eventually have to accept the Mormon version to progress eternally. That's my objection to labeling Mormons Christians, because they basically believe they are the only real Christians, and everyone one else is doing it wrong. To me, that puts the power into the institution instead of into the hands of god.
I think we are saying the same thing, maybe you misunderstood what I wrote, maybe I was not clear. Although, when you wrote that "all other paths are lesser" I was taught "all other paths were wrong."
thank you for explaining, and yes, I would agree, I think we are saying the same thing.
MG 2.0
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Re: Is the Book of Mormon Divinely Inspired?

Post by MG 2.0 »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2024 12:05 am
IHQ, you’ve ignored me twice now.
What I do know is that there are other things going on in the Book of Mormon that critics have not had satisfactory responses to. Stylometry, Chiasmus, complex narrative, shadows and reflections of the ancient world, additional archeological/linguistic evidences discovered over the years, etc.
When you look at these things as a whole…do you think a nineteenth century somewhat illiterate farmboy wrote the Book of Mormon?

You’re putting all your eggs in one basket.

Answer the question.

Regards,
MG
Bump
drumdude
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Re: Is the Book of Mormon Divinely Inspired?

Post by drumdude »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2024 5:31 am
MG 2.0 wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2024 12:05 am
IHQ, you’ve ignored me twice now.

When you look at these things as a whole…do you think a nineteenth century somewhat illiterate farmboy wrote the Book of Mormon?

You’re putting all your eggs in one basket.

Answer the question.

Regards,
MG
Bump
A broken clock is right twice a day. Why don’t you add the other side of the ledger where Joe was clearly wrong?
I Have Questions
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Re: Is the Book of Mormon Divinely Inspired?

Post by I Have Questions »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2024 12:01 am
I Have Questions wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2024 10:39 pm
Do you think the mistakes made in the 17th Century KJV Bible production, were on the gold plates? Simple yes or no.
On the gold plates? No.

Regards,
MG
1. Joseph Smith and the Church claim that “THE Book of Mormon” is “AN ACCOUNT WRITTEN BY THE HAND OF Mormon UPON PLATES TAKEN FROM THE PLATES OF NEPHI”.
2. The Book of Mormon contains content from the 17th century that MG2.0 states was not on the gold plates.
Therefore 3. MG 2.0 does not believe the Book of Mormon is what Joseph Smith and the Church claim it to be.
Premise 1. Eyewitness testimony is notoriously unreliable.
Premise 2. The best evidence for the Book of Mormon is eyewitness testimony.
Conclusion. Therefore, the best evidence for the Book of Mormon is notoriously unreliable.
I Have Questions
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Re: Is the Book of Mormon Divinely Inspired?

Post by I Have Questions »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2024 12:05 am
IHQ, you’ve ignored me twice now.
What I do know is that there are other things going on in the Book of Mormon that critics have not had satisfactory responses to. Stylometry, Chiasmus, complex narrative, shadows and reflections of the ancient world, additional archeological/linguistic evidences discovered over the years, etc.
When you look at these things as a whole…do you think a nineteenth century somewhat illiterate farmboy wrote the Book of Mormon?

You’re putting all your eggs in one basket.

Answer the question.

Regards,
MG
Once we’ve established that the Book of Mormon isn’t a translation of ancient gold plates - which we’ve done by acknowledging that errors made in the 17th Century when publishing the KJV Bible appear in a record claimed to have been written 1,348 years earlier on gold plates. It becomes irrelevant as to how, why and who dunnit. The book is a fraud. You’ve agreed that when you agreed that there is content in the current Book of Mormon that wasn’t on the gold plates. Whatever else it may or may not be, whoever did or did not write it, is irrelevant.

It isn’t what it claims to be. Joseph Smith lied about it, the Church is still lying about it. Bernie Madoff lied about producing stellar performing investment schemes, do you really need to know who built the spreadsheets?
Premise 1. Eyewitness testimony is notoriously unreliable.
Premise 2. The best evidence for the Book of Mormon is eyewitness testimony.
Conclusion. Therefore, the best evidence for the Book of Mormon is notoriously unreliable.
MG 2.0
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Re: Is the Book of Mormon Divinely Inspired?

Post by MG 2.0 »

drumdude wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2024 5:39 am
MG 2.0 wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2024 5:31 am
Bump
A broken clock is right twice a day. Why don’t you add the other side of the ledger where Joe was clearly wrong?
IHQ is using Bible corrections/errors found in the Book of Mormon as the ‘smoking gun’ while ignoring the other evidences which lean towards Book of Mormon authenticity.

Simply ignoring them.

I consider that to be unwise.

For example, he simply disregards stylometry studies that have been done over the years. I would suggest a complete reading of this Book of Mormon Central essay:

https://knowhy.bookofmormoncentral.org/ ... orship.pdf

I’m not sure what your clock analogy has to do with stylometry and other evidence that point towards Book of Mormon authenticity.

Regards,
MG
MG 2.0
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Re: Is the Book of Mormon Divinely Inspired?

Post by MG 2.0 »

I Have Questions wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2024 8:05 am
MG 2.0 wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2024 12:01 am


On the gold plates? No.

Regards,
MG
1. Joseph Smith and the Church claim that “THE Book of Mormon” is “AN ACCOUNT WRITTEN BY THE HAND OF Mormon UPON PLATES TAKEN FROM THE PLATES OF NEPHI”.
2. The Book of Mormon contains content from the 17th century that MG2.0 states was not on the gold plates.
Therefore 3. MG 2.0 does not believe the Book of Mormon is what Joseph Smith and the Church claim it to be.
Yes, taken from the plates of Nephi. No argument there.

I don’t believe that the translation was a direct ‘copyist’ mode of translation. There was more to it. It might sound silly to you to think that the translation process may have involved a collaborative effort from a number of players, with God at the helm. I don’t think it is silly.

It makes sense.

If you’ve read Blake Ostler you would know that there are reasons to think/consider that there was more going on than a simple ‘one for one’ translation going on.

Your ‘smoking gun’ is not convincing at all.

Regards,
MG
MG 2.0
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Re: Is the Book of Mormon Divinely Inspired?

Post by MG 2.0 »

I Have Questions wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2024 8:13 am
MG 2.0 wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2024 12:05 am
IHQ, you’ve ignored me twice now.



When you look at these things as a whole…do you think a nineteenth century somewhat illiterate farmboy wrote the Book of Mormon?

You’re putting all your eggs in one basket.

Answer the question.

Regards,
MG
Once we’ve established that the Book of Mormon isn’t a translation of ancient gold plates - which we’ve done by acknowledging that errors made in the 17th Century when publishing the KJV Bible appear in a record claimed to have been written 1,348 years earlier on gold plates. It becomes irrelevant as to how, why and who dunnit.
I don’t think you’ve made a case at all. You haven’t actually answered the question I’ve asked three of four times now. You can’t simply wave it off and say these other evidences of Book of Mormon authenticity have no relevance or meaning.

Regards,
MG
MG 2.0
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Re: Is the Book of Mormon Divinely Inspired?

Post by MG 2.0 »

I Have Questions wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2024 8:13 am
Joseph Smith lied about it, the Church is still lying about it. Bernie Madoff lied about producing stellar performing investment schemes, do you really need to know who built the spreadsheets?
This comparison has little or no one to one relevance to the evidences that point to Book of Mormon authenticity.

I don’t think Joseph Smith was lying. You do. Ready to call it a day?

Regards,
MG
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