Tarski wrote:Are you not aware of the logical problems associated with the notion of the absolute 'all".
There is always a potentially larger context. This is related to the idea that there is no "set of all sets".
Russell's paradox is the most famous of the logical or set-theoretical paradoxes. The paradox arises within naïve set theory by considering the set of all sets that are not members of themselves. Such a set appears to be a member of itself if and only if it is not a member of itself, hence the paradox.
Some sets, such as the set of all teacups, are not members of themselves. Other sets, such as the set of all non-teacups, are members of themselves. Call the set of all sets that are not members of themselves "R." If R is a member of itself, then by definition it must not be a member of itself. Similarly, if R is not a member of itself, then by definition it must be a member of itself. Discovered by Bertrand Russell in 1901, the paradox has prompted much work in logic, set theory and the philosophy and foundations of mathematics.
Coggins7 wrote:You speak as if the world "must" have transcendent, teleological meaning.No, I'm not saying it must (though I believe it must and does) have meaning. My whole argument here is essentially tautological: If the universe doesn't have meaning, then, well, it doesn't.
I disagree. If the universe is meaningless then it can still have meaning if I want it to. My wanting is meaningful to me at least for the time that I am a "me." Beyond that, what does it matter to me, unless my me-ness persists and I don't know that it does, although I personally believe it does. But this faith of mine is designed to help me find meaning and happiness now--not if and when I persist beyond the grave.The universe may not be without an inherent teleology. We don't know--yet--unless we believe we do.Wait...I think you mean to say that you don't know, isn't that correct?
I disagree. If the universe is meaningless then it can still have meaning if I want it to. My wanting is meaningful to me at least for the time that I am a "me." Beyond that, what does it matter to me, unless my me-ness persists and I don't know that it does, although I personally believe it does. But this faith of mine is designed to help me find meaning and happiness now--not if and when I persist beyond the grave.
Coggins7 wrote:I disagree. If the universe is meaningless then it can still have meaning if I want it to. My wanting is meaningful to me at least for the time that I am a "me." Beyond that, what does it matter to me, unless my me-ness persists and I don't know that it does, although I personally believe it does. But this faith of mine is designed to help me find meaning and happiness now--not if and when I persist beyond the grave.
Why persist going around this dead carcass yet again. This is the end for me on this thread.
If the universe is meaningless then it can still have meaning between your ears and in no other meaningful or relevant way. The frog is in the well, and outside the well, an abyssal void of nothingness.
It may have more meaning than that which is "between my ears." I am simply not aware of it yet. Between science and my working hypothesis that there is something more, I am happy in the belief that the more will become clear(er) to me in my lifetime. But that is simply my faith.
In other words, once again, all the meaning you can concoct (???) is a fantasy over against the reality (possible reality) of ontological meaninglessness. If and when you persist beyond the grave, the Gospel of Jesus Christ would have prepared you, conditioned you and capacitated you for that transition and what lay beyond. You choose to reject that knowledge now in the hope that all will somehow, over the rainbow, just work out.
You choose to believe this. Why? Could it be because you believe it will bring you happiness?
What you will find, however, is a relative level of damnation; the stopping or restricting of your further progression beyond certain limits that you yourself imposed upon yourself in this life.
Your belief requires you to believe that this line of thinking must apply to me. I understand that. Otherwise you wouldn't really believe in your faith. Faith is hope and hope is the precursor for happiness.
The Book of Revelation says the he that overcometh will "inherit all things". Why turn that down so you can keep pretending that somehow there's no way to know greater truths?
Coggins7 wrote:If the universe is meaningless then it can still have meaning between your ears and in no other meaningful or relevant way. The frog is in the well, and outside the well, an abyssal void of nothingness.
In other words, once again, all the meaning you can concoct is a fantasy over against the reality of ontological meaninglessness. If and when you persist beyond the grave, the Gospel of Jesus Christ would have prepared you, conditioned you and capacitated you for that transition and what lay beyond. You choose to reject that knowledge now in the hope that all will somehow, over the rainbow, just work out.
What you will find, however, is a relative level of damnation; the stopping or restricting of your further progression beyond certain limits that you yourself imposed upon yourself in this life.
The Book of Revelation says the he that overcometh will "inherit all things". Why turn that down so you can keep pretending that somehow there's no way to know greater truths?
Where do laws originate?
Where does cause and effect originate? God knows the eventual result of every cause and effect, and lives after the manner of happiness. The great plan of salvation is not just a grand experiment.