Are Mormonism and Human Evolution Compatible?

[_Jason Bourne]

The degree to which you have to twist and turn is related directly to the level of knowledge and understanding you have of some of the issues. Since I can't know what state of scientific maturity and knowledge you're at, you're actually correct that I really cannot know what you twist and turn to avoid. I would like to point out though, that resorting to "it works for me" arguments isn't exactly a very powerful argument for the church's ultimate truth.

I am not trying to argue the LDS Church contains the ultimate truth. I do not believe any one religion or philosophy contains the ultimate truth, LDS Church included.

You could find utility, joy, and meaning as a Jehovah's witness, a Zen Buddhist, or a born-again Christian. It really would all come down to personality, what someone was born into, and personal preference, what was actually "true" on that basis. That's not exactly a good reason to regard the LDS church as God's Kingdom on Earth.

I most likely could. But for me, for now the LDS Church works quite fine for me.

I regard evolution as a fact.

I am happy for you. I don't but I hold it as a great theory. I think there is a God that could also have used evolution as the way to create.
t.

Actually, let me say a few words about this. I have never traded one dogma for another.

Ok. But you seem pretty dogmatic about a lot of things.

It wasn't until I was around 36 (I'm 38 now) that things came to a head, and there were simply too many things that I'd recognized the church had wrong, that when I learned more details about the Book of Abraham, and about Joseph Smith's rampant, serial adultery (I don't accept his "marriages" as having any legitimacy, so adultery is what we're left with as a term), his lying and deception about the polygamy, etc. I was forced to face up to the idea that the church might not actually be true.

As noted I do not believe there is a One True Church so maybe that is why we are talking past each other.

[_Jason Bourne]

The way I see it, the CHURCH is the one who claims to have the definitive answers.... I think most scientists go with the idea that we learn as we go. The CHRUCH is the one who claims to KNOW God is a man, there was no death until Adam and Eve, there was a war in heaven, God has a body of flesh and bones, etc. etc. etc.

Yes I agree but Seth seemed to me to be awful close to bearing a testimony about evolution.

And, it is the church who claims to be receiving truth and knowledge from GOD Himself...

Are you so certain that you cannot let a bit of the mystical and metaphysical benefits that come through faith and religion come into your life.

Are you so certain that Santa Clause doesn't exist that you can't let yourself have faith that there is a magical man flying in the sky with Reindeer and a sleigh bringing you presents? (smile)!

To hold out that there may be a higher power, have faith in that, enjoy the metephysical aspects of spirituality is nothing like what you say above. I think you know this. It is silly to compare what I am saying to this.

To me, the idea of trying to believe what seems nonsensical TO ME, doesn't make a lot of sense.

To me, evolutions creating life spontaneously out of nothing by chance is nonsensical. A power behind it that uses evolution, or some form of higher intelligence is not nonsensical to me.

[_Jason Bourne]

Strange because I have had this conversation with many individuals in the church, and I have found that literal is much fewer than symbolic.

I simply do not believe you. The LDS Church, as has been demonstrated, is built upon the scriptual accounts about this being literal. As McConkie notes, and his speech was quoted here, if Adam and Even did not really fall then we need no Christ. Do you view Jesus as figurative as well?

Maybe this is how THE CHURCH is (the physical part and the scriptural part) but the members whom I speak with regularly tell me they believe that Adam and Eve was not literal. All I can say is sometimes what is in scripture, and what a CHURCH says is not what its members say. Maybe here in Kentucky things are quite different from Utah in regards to this matter.

I do not live in Utah. Try this Sunday. In GD ask the question as to how many believe Adam and Eve are myths, and if they are, there was not fall what might this do to the need for a savior.

[_Nephi]

I simply do not believe you. The LDS Church, as has been demonstrated, is built upon the scriptual accounts about this being literal. As McConkie notes, and his speech was quoted here, if Adam and Even did not really fall then we need no Christ. Do you view Jesus as figurative as well?

Maybe this is how THE CHURCH is (the physical part and the scriptural part) but the members whom I speak with regularly tell me they believe that Adam and Eve was not literal. All I can say is sometimes what is in scripture, and what a CHURCH says is not what its members say. Maybe here in Kentucky things are quite different from Utah in regards to this matter.

I do not live in Utah. Try this Sunday. In GD ask the question as to how many believe Adam and Eve are myths, and if they are, there was not fall what might this do to the need for a savior.

I will be more than happy to ask around as to who believes that Adam and Eve are symbolic, but I never said there wasn't a fall. The fall is symbolic as well. Please read what I said. I stipulated that Adam and Eve symbolize something else, as does the fall.

However, since we are not talking about Adam and Eve or the Fall in GD this Sunday, it would be inappropriate for me to do as you ask.

[_Jason Bourne]

I will be more than happy to ask around as to who believes that Adam and Eve are symbolic, but I never said there wasn't a fall. The fall is symbolic as well. Please read what I said. I stipulated that Adam and Eve symbolize something else, as does the fall.

If there is nobody in paradise to commit sin and fall how was there a fall? If the fall is symbolic then is Jesus and the atonement symbolic? Do you think the writers of the Bible and Book of Mormon believed Adam and Eve and the fall were all symbolic myths?

However, since we are not talking about Adam and Eve or the Fall in GD this Sunday, it would be inappropriate for me to do as you ask.

So ask around or bring it up in your priesthood meeting.

[_Nephi]

I will be more than happy to ask around as to who believes that Adam and Eve are symbolic, but I never said there wasn't a fall. The fall is symbolic as well. Please read what I said. I stipulated that Adam and Eve symbolize something else, as does the fall.

If there is nobody in paradise to commit sin and fall how was there a fall? If the fall is symbolic then is Jesus and the atonement symbolic? Do you think the writers of the Bible and Book of Mormon believed Adam and Eve and the fall were all symbolic myths?

However, since we are not talking about Adam and Eve or the Fall in GD this Sunday, it would be inappropriate for me to do as you ask.

So ask around or bring it up in your priesthood meeting.

Can do. Personally, I believe "the fall" is when man went from natural animal in the environment to un-natural human trying to control his environment (maybe with the discovery of fire?)... But that fall, the point when we went from innocent animal to non-innocent humans. Was it a decisive line drawn in the sand? Probably not, and occurred over a few thousand years, but there is a point where we were no longer of "natural" status, so to speak.

[_Runtu]

Can do. Personally, I believe "the fall" is when man went from natural animal in the environment to un-natural human trying to control his environment (maybe with the discovery of fire?)... But that fall, the point when we went from innocent animal to non-innocent humans. Was it a decisive line drawn in the sand? Probably not, and occurred over a few thousand years, but there is a point where we were no longer of "natural" status, so to speak.

You should be grateful you don't live in the days of Joseph Fielding Smith. You'd have been exed a long time ago for apostasy. ;-)

[_Nephi]

Can do. Personally, I believe "the fall" is when man went from natural animal in the environment to un-natural human trying to control his environment (maybe with the discovery of fire?)... But that fall, the point when we went from innocent animal to non-innocent humans. Was it a decisive line drawn in the sand? Probably not, and occurred over a few thousand years, but there is a point where we were no longer of "natural" status, so to speak.

You should be grateful you don't live in the days of Joseph Fielding Smith. You'd have been exed a long time ago for apostasy. ;-)

My path is my true path, and I know this deep in my heart. If the church were to do such a thing to me, then so be it, but I cannot deny what I know is true.

[_Runtu]

My path is my true path, and I know this deep in my heart. If the church were to do such a thing to me, then so be it, but I cannot deny what I know is true.

I can't fault you for that. I hope you never have to choose between the church and your own path. It's not much fun.

[_Nephi]

I can't fault you for that. I hope you never have to choose between the church and your own path. It's not much fun.

Honestly, I would be more worried about the repercussions within my family than anything else.