Which way did they go Joe?

[_karl61]

[...]
The mob killed Joseph Smith because he pissed them off. Plain and simple.

I assume this is hyperbole (at least I hope it is)....(?)

I dunno. I'd almost argue it was litotes.

What I'm more interested in though are the implications of this statement: "The mob klled him because it was necessary for him to seal his testimony with his blood."

the old seal his testmony with his blood trick. I need to look it up in my trick book but I "know" I have seen it there.

[Reflexzero]

I dunno. I'd almost argue it was litotes.

Having gone back and read a bit of the posts leading up to that, I'd say that as usual you are probably correct.

What I'm more interested in though are the implications of this statement: "The mob klled him because it was necessary for him to seal his testimony with his blood."

I suppose it could be argued from scripture regarding G-d’s use of wicked people to bring about His purposes. However, I’m not exactly aware of anything that necessitated his [Joseph's] testimony be “sealed with his blood.”

It would bring about some interesting (and perhaps damaging[?]) implications regarding free will.

[_ozemc]

Could be just about anywhere on the planet, I would guess.

Or at least a place that had, ummm, streams, and, ummm, fruit trees. You know, like anywhere in the middle latitudes?

Um, like the Arabian Peninsula where less than 1% is arable land?

If you go to wiki, you can look at the global map of arable land.

I helps to do a little research before yoiu post.

Oh, please, did I not say ... the middle latitudes.

To use your own source, wiki: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_latitudes)

The middle latitudes are between 33 degrees 33' 33" North and 66 degrees 33' 33" and 63 degrees 33' 33" South and 33 degrees 33' 33" Southlatitude , or, roughly, the earth's temperate zones between the tropics and the Arctic and Antarctic.

Now, if you look on a map, again on your source, wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Worl ... cs-non.png), you'll notice that the majority of the Arabian Peninsula lies below the northern middle latitudes.

The reason not much grows in that area in general, and the Arabian Penensula in particular, is because it is too near the equator. That's why all the growing is around the rivers. The rest is desert, or at least, extremely arid.

Research indeed.

[_Blixa]

I dunno. I'd almost argue it was litotes.

Having gone back and read a bit of the posts leading up to that, I'd say that as usual you are probably correct.

What I'm more interested in though are the implications of this statement: "The mob klled him because it was necessary for him to seal his testimony with his blood."

I suppose it could be argued from scripture regarding G-d’s use of wicked people to bring about His purposes. However, I’m not exactly aware of anything that necessitated his [Joseph's] testimony be “sealed with his blood.”

It would bring about some interesting (and perhaps damaging[?]) implications regarding free will.

I think there are several interesting implications, the Jesus/Joseph Smith fusing being one avenue, and the historical obsession with literal blood spilling being another.

[_ozemc]

A spiritual witness is an indicator of truth, not of facts.

You believe that facts are not truth? That truth is not based on facts?

Facts are piddly little things that don't mean much on their own. Your husband brings you roses. You have roses. That is a fact. What is the truth behind the roses? He loves you? Your mother called him at work and told him you were going to be really angry if you didn't get roses on this anniversary, and he didn't want to sleep on the couch? He is feeling guilty about something? The fact of having roses is not very important.

By their fruits shall we know them. Joseph's fruits = the restored Gospel. Joseph's fruit = sealing power for families. Joseph's fruit = a church whose members are healthier and happier not only than non church goers, but church goers of other denominations. No wonder he recognized and respected as a prophet by millions of people.

Wait a minute .... How do you know that LDS members are "healthier and happier" than churchgoers of other denominations? Sorry, but that sounds pretty arrogant.

[_ozemc]

The winners and losers are not here on message boards. It is in the eternities. Those who have not been diligent will be the losers when they have listened to the wrong spirit.

God removed his protection from Joseph Smith, and the mob killed him. By your reasoning, the mob was listening to the right spirit.

The mob klled him because it was necessary for him to seal his testimony with his blood. By your reasoning, God removed His protection from Jesus, sop that must mean the Romans were listening to the right spirits. ??????

WHAT?????

I thought Christ's blood was enough for everyone.

[_charity]

Joseph's fruit = a church whose members are healthier and happier not only than non church goers, but church goers of other denominations.

Now THIS is a statement that if you had to play by the one-sided rules of the MAD board, you'd get called on here. I don't think there's any way you could ever prove this, and I think you know it. Keep living in your fantasy world, Charity...

There are studies that show this. SDA and LDS are close in which group is the healthiest. Studies also show that those with the highest involvement in religious practices (attendance at meetings, rituals, etc.) are happier.

I'm actually okay with the LDS church. I don't think it is any worse than most other organized religions. It gives many of its members structure and hope that they probably wouldn't get if they weren't members. I just get a little irked when some insist it is so much better than all the other ways of life, and more "true," etc.. That is the kind of attitude that creates wars and judgmentalism...and that has an ill effect on all of us.

I agree. People can be happy and not be members of the Church. The key to happiness is living the life Jesus commanded. People don't even have to know what He said or that they are following the commandments. If they are living by the laws which guarantee happiness, they will be happy.

[_charity]

Fact: Joseph was a treasure hunter who swindled people.
Fact: The papyrus is a funeral poem.
Fact: Joseph married teenagers and other men's wives.

Those aren't piddly little things, charity. They shake the foundation of the church.

You have just demonstrated what I said.

Fact: Joseph, as many others in his time, looked for buried treasure.
Error: There are no facts which establish that he swindled people doing it. There are people who said he did. Those are not facts. So you have misinterpreted and misundestood.

Fact: One of the small pieces of recovered papyrus is a funeral poem.
Error: You assume that the small piece (the recovered papyrus are estimated at being less than 20% of the papyri which were in Joseph's possession) is the fragment from which the Book of Abraham was produced.

Fact: Joseph Smith practiced plural marriage as commanded by God. Whatever God commands is right.
Error: You think, but you don't know it as a fact, that God didn't really command it.

None of your "facts" means anything against the Church. Your interpretations, which are in your own mind, might. But that is irrelevant.

[Guest]

Sheesh, I hate Joseph Smith-Jesus Christ comparisons. It does nothing to distance the Mormon Church from the criticism that it deifies Joseph Smith.

You made a really wrong conclusion here. I didn't compare Joseph Smith to Jesus. What I was talking about was the idea that if someone dies it is because God withdraws His protection. This is one of the common anti-Mormon strateties--apply something to Joseph Smith/Mormon Church which they are not willing to apply to their own theological ideas.

The IDEA is that if you say the only reason a person dies is because God withdraws His protection, then you have to be willing to apply that in all instances.

The mob killed Joseph Smith because he pissed them off. Plain and simple.

You really think that any time someone really angers people, that a mob is going to gather and kill them? You see this as just an normal expression of good old American frontier rowdy nature? Something to do on a Saturday night? Figure out somebody or a group of somebodies, burn their houses, beat up the men, rape the wives, and then kill their leader?

You have a weird idea about people.

[_the road to hana]

Fact: Joseph Smith practiced plural marriage as commanded by God. Whatever God commands is right.
Error: You think, but you don't know it as a fact, that God didn't really command it.

Whoa, Nelly. How is this third "fact" a fact?

It might be a fact to say: Joseph Smith practiced plural marriage.

Otherwise, you're venturing into dangerous territory.