TAL BACHMAN RESPONDS TO PRESIDENT KEYES

[_mbeesley]

In view of Tal Bachman’s recollection of the events that took place during a meeting 5 years ago with his then stake president is being questioned by this same stake president 5 years later, I thought it would be valuable to post some of Tal’s original RFM posts regarding his meeting with this stake president from 5 years ago. Tal has been gracious enough to grant me permission to repost his thoughts.

Thanks for posting those old messages. As I read them, they looked very familiar, and I recall reading them years ago when i was apsotate and used to regularly read the RfM board, as well as Bill Shunn's material. Even at the time, and despite my own apostacy and misgivings about the Church at the time, I was struck by how unbelievable Tals story was. As I read his material now, including his more recent postings, it is even more apparent how Tal's story evolved the more he told it.

As a former apostate, I appreciate fully how deliciously real our rants and delusions about the evils misdeeds of of LDS Church can become. But as one who has returned from the abyss, I can still harbor hope for many of my brothers and sisters who continue to point the finger of scorn from that great and spacious building. The love of our Heavenly Father is unimaginably infinite. His patience is incomprehensible. The superlatives used to describe His might, majesty and dominion are woefully inadeaquate. And yet He remains so easily and fully approachable.

I'm much happier and much more at peace within the fold than I ever was without.

[_Mister Scratch]

Oh yeah, one more thing:

I've got Midgley (can someone get this guy some anger management classes?) emailing me now trying to get me into the FAIR ring, no doubt to finish me off once and for all! lol

Next time Midgley e-mails you, invite him to skip the FAIR middleman and simply join us here at MormonDiscussions.com. I for one will welcome him with open arms.

Let's see how well he fares on a level playing-field.

I'd like to second this. I'd definitely be interested in Midgley's take on all of this. Then again, given his anger management issues, perhaps it has been wise of him to avoid confronting the critics who post on this board.

That said, I wonder if Tal could be persuaded to post the emails? (With the requisite permission, of course.) I, for one, would be interested in reading them.

[_Chap]

Oh yeah, one more thing:

I've got Midgley (can someone get this guy some anger management classes?) emailing me now trying to get me into the FAIR ring, no doubt to finish me off once and for all! lol

Next time Midgley e-mails you, invite him to skip the FAIR middleman and simply join us here at MormonDiscussions.com. I for one will welcome him with open arms.

Let's see how well he fares on a level playing-field.

This place is far from level.

In what ways is it, in your view 'not level'?

Has anyone, for instance, told you that you would be banned if your posts continued to follow a certain line? Or what?

Do you think the MAD board is level? Or is it just more level than this board?

Please clarify what on earth you mean.

[_Cr@ig P@xton]

Even at the time, and despite my own apostacy and misgivings about the Church at the time, I was struck by how unbelievable Tals story was. As I read his material now, including his more recent postings, it is even more apparent how Tal's story evolved the more he told it. As a former apostate, I appreciate fully how deliciously real our rants and delusions about the evils misdeeds of of LDS Church can become.

Seems like your TBM "refitted" filter has been re-activated and is in good working order... Just don't let those blinders ever slip off again...

[_marg]

This place is far from level.

In what ways is it, in your view 'not level'?

I do agree with LOAP this board is not level. And Shades has given no indication at this point in time he intends to protect anyone from harrassment in the Celestial.

So don't kid yourselves, that just because no one gets banned that translates into being a board which enables an honest critical discussion free from harrassment.

[_Chap]

This place is far from level.

In what ways is it, in your view 'not level'?

I do agree with LOAP this board is not level. And Shades has given no indication at this point in time he intends to protect anyone from harrassment in the Celestial.

So don't kid yourselves, that just because no one gets banned that translates into being a board which enables an honest critical discussion free from harrassment.

In what way are you 'harrassed'?

Do you just mean that sometimes people respond to your posts by saying things about your opinions that you find unpleasant?

Do you think this board is less 'level' than MAD? About the same? More level? Why? A comparison might help others to understand you better.

[_mbeesley]

Even at the time, and despite my own apostacy and misgivings about the Church at the time, I was struck by how unbelievable Tals story was. As I read his material now, including his more recent postings, it is even more apparent how Tal's story evolved the more he told it. As a former apostate, I appreciate fully how deliciously real our rants and delusions about the evils misdeeds of of LDS Church can become.

Seems like your TBM "refitted" filter has been re-activated and is in good working order... Just don't let those blinders ever slip off again...

LOL. Thanks, I'll be careful. And YOU be careful not to poke yourself in the eye son. :)

[_marg]

In what way are you 'harrassed'?

It's quite simple, one can be harassed by another simply by a person focussing on attacks in lieu of topic. When it's excessive, persistent, and deliberate, it's harassment. It effectively can prevent furthering of a critical discussion. I wrote about this in the thread in the Celestial currently stickied. I wrote an entire post explaining what an ad hominem is. Many people look for exceptions to the rule, to justify ad hominems, but even ones which are justified logically still are meant to prevent rather than facilitate further a critical discussion.

Do you just mean that sometimes people respond to your posts by saying things about your opinions that you find unpleasant?

Please see my post which discusses ad hominems.

Do you think this board is less 'level' than MAD? About the same? More level? Why? A comparison might help others to understand you better.

What difference does it make? Just because MAD is obviously not level doesn't make this one level. At least MAD acknowledges openly they aren't level.

There is no reason why anyone from MAD, DCP for example should feel comfortable arguing on here. There are no safeguards in place to protect him from harassment, it is at the whim of the mods or Shades. There is no clear, nor hard and fast rule on this board at to what an ad hominem is and what exactly is tolerated. I'm mainly referring to the Celestial because we know the Terrestial allows personal attacks.

My point is not to go off on a tangent on this stuff but to be honest and acknowledge this isn't a fair place for critical discussion which will stay on topic rather than veer off onto ad hominems for someone like DCP or whoever else from MAD is invited here.

Let's just be honest about that.

[_LifeOnaPlate]

Oh yeah, one more thing:

I've got Midgley (can someone get this guy some anger management classes?) emailing me now trying to get me into the FAIR ring, no doubt to finish me off once and for all! lol

Next time Midgley e-mails you, invite him to skip the FAIR middleman and simply join us here at MormonDiscussions.com. I for one will welcome him with open arms.

Let's see how well he fares on a level playing-field.

This place is far from level.

In what ways is it, in your view 'not level'?

Has anyone, for instance, told you that you would be banned if your posts continued to follow a certain line? Or what?

Do you think the MAD board is level? Or is it just more level than this board?

Please clarify what on earth you mean.

There are enough disrespectful trolls here to render those willing to engage in civil dialog unwilling to submit themselves to childish banter. (Unless they are the ones bantering, of course!)

[_LifeOnaPlate]

This place is far from level.

In what ways is it, in your view 'not level'?

I do agree with LOAP this board is not level. And Shades has given no indication at this point in time he intends to protect anyone from harrassment in the Celestial.

So don't kid yourselves, that just because no one gets banned that translates into being a board which enables an honest critical discussion free from harrassment.

Perhaps I couldn't have said it better.