Bloggist plagiarizes me

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_EAllusion
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Re: Bloggist plagiarizes me

Post by _EAllusion »

That is a stupid analogy, and I am surprised you would think otherwise. We understand thunder. There are scientific explanations for thunder

As for me misrepresenting the argument in my syllogism, I was quoting William Lane Craig without breaking it down the premises further and keeping it the context of a post I wrote at the begining of this thread. It's just an explanation of the argument. How about I just type out this quote from a Drange essay:

In the last few decades a tantalizingly great number of exceedingly rare coincidences, vital for the existence of a minimally stable universe and without which no form of life could exist anywhere, have been discovered. . . . [G]iven any one of infinitely many universes, some conjunction or other of physical magnitudes will have to obtain. However, the prevailing conjunction is not merely one of indefinitely many; it is also an instance of a virtually infinitesimally rare kind of universe: the kind capable of sustaining life. The hypothesis that it was produced by a Being interested in sentient organic systems adequately explains this otherwise inexplicably astonishing fact.


http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/ ... tInfidels/

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/ ... uning.html

Yay me. As for for this, you think maybe there was a time when there wasn't a scientific explanation for thunder? Like, when people believed in thunder gods? Do you think, maybe, that might have been my point? Do you think, maybe, that even without a scientific explanation for thunder that argument would still be bad? Do you think, maybe, that might have been my other point? I was, after all, making a comparison to a similar type of argument from ignorance.

If you want to propose a different form of the syllogism, by all means do so. There are a couple different ways to express a fine-tuning case. I'll modify my thundergod syllogism appropriately.
Last edited by Guest on Thu Aug 28, 2008 4:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
_dartagnan
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Re: Bloggist plagiarizes me

Post by _dartagnan »

Good God Kevin. Do you even read what I write? There exist as many possible gods as their exist possible universes.

Technically there could be multiple gods in one universe. So what? These are theological issues and beside the point. How do you deal with the evidence that strongly points to an intelligent source for the universe?
Your God is defined as wanting to create this universe.

That's the goal, yes. Something has to be responsible for its creation if we assume it had a beginning, as even Hawking conceded.
That's one god of all the different possible gods that could've wanted to create other universes.

What's your point? My point is that this describes virtually all versions of God that are out there.
That's how you've picked one specific kind of god. You've tailor defined your God to obtain what it is we happen to observe. I really don't think we can have a fruitful conversation if you can't even grasp basic points like this I'm making.

I think I have grasped what you said, I just don't understand why you're saying it. Every time you or JAK go off on this "multiple gods" tangent, it always ends up in another discussion that has nothing to do with the subject at hand. It doesn't matter if the universe was created by one, two or a million gods. The fact is science is telling us that it was likely created by an intelligence. I would argue that it has to be, for the same reason I have argued that evolution has to be preprogrammed by an intelligent designer. Life doesn't evolve from the ocean to land to the air, taking flight without some basic knowledge of aerodynamics. Natural selection doesn't even begin to explain how birds evolved into flying creatures, etc.

I am waiting for you to offer a reasonable response to the anthropic principle, but instead you insist on telling me how I've "tailored" my God, and you keep presenting these whacked out analogies that have nothing to do with the true anthropic argument or anything I have said. Now you're bringing up an old incident where you refuted some internet creationist for misrepresenting other scientists. What are you implying here? I typed out 23 pages from a book last night, just for you, and you respond by asking for references. What the heck?
“All knowledge of reality starts from experience and ends in it...Propositions arrived at by purely logical means are completely empty as regards reality." - Albert Einstein
_EAllusion
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Re: Bloggist plagiarizes me

Post by _EAllusion »

But you do not know this. You assume this. You're trying to dismiss the problem by simply arguing via assertion that they were always there, therefore nothing is responsible for them. That won't fly and it isn't science. It is faith-based reasoning.


Yeah. Two problems with this.

1) I'm not assuming anything. Simply because natural regularity is a viable option, that doesn't mean I propose accepting it. When faced with several unsupported options, I think the proper thing to do is to withhold judgment, not pick one and conclude it is right to the exclusion of others. While you may be personally incapable of saying "I don't know," that doesn't mean that atheists are required to pick an explanation unless there is an actual reason to do so.

2) Metaphysical rules is at least more simple than metaphysical rules + god. So, not only does it not "beg the question" anymore than what you offer, it also offers the benefit of not needlessly attaching uneccessary claims like personhood to it.

I'm amazed at your capacity to throw up thousands of words so quickly and so relentlessly, but I'm not as enamored with your ability to make solid points. Honestly Kevin, how many serious critques of fine-tuning arguments have you read?

Finally, when I asked you to quote your secondary source, I was referring to the post in which you referenced Monod et al.
_dartagnan
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Re: Bloggist plagiarizes me

Post by _dartagnan »

As for me misrepresenting the argument in my syllogism, I was quoting William Lane Craig without breaking it down the premises further.

Maybe that's your problem and the source of confusion here? Do you think that by addressing arguments elsewhere on the web, that this somehow counts as a response to mine? Saying it is "similar" to mine means nothing unless I agree.
Yay me. As for for this, you think maybe there was a time when there wasn't a scientific explanation for thunder? Like, when people believed in thunder gods?

Here you go again. You absolutely refuse to deal with the argument on its own merits. You insist on falling back on the history of religion to make your case seem stronger than it is. So what if people once believed in a thunder god? They first believed in a God who gave birth to the universe. All other subsequent gods were understood as divine beings just the same, with their own assigned responsibilities and powers in nature.
Do you think, maybe, that might have been my point?

If it was, then it was weak. You're not showing I am wrong by pointing out beliefs of the ancient Babylonians or any other ancient theistic civilization.
Do you think, maybe, that even without a scientific explanation for thunder that argument would still be bad?

Wrong maybe, but bad?
So if I point to examples where scientists were wrong in their conclusions, does that mean I can use these against your non-scientific conclusion in this instance? All you're doing is showing me you're wandering around on the web looking for some similar argument and borrowing whatever "refutation" you find on any infidel.org-type article.
Do you think, maybe, that might have been my other point?

Do you think, maybe, that this is not comparable to the anthropic argument? Do you think, maybe, that this is a logical fallacy?
I was, after all, making a comparison to a similar type of argument from igonrance.

Well it would help if you first showed that I have argued from ignorance.
“All knowledge of reality starts from experience and ends in it...Propositions arrived at by purely logical means are completely empty as regards reality." - Albert Einstein
_dartagnan
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Re: Bloggist plagiarizes me

Post by _dartagnan »

when I asked you to quote your secondary source, I was referring to the post in which you referenced Monod et al.


More later tomorrow, but I just wanted to point out that I never referenced Monod. I think you're reading something Cypress wrote.
“All knowledge of reality starts from experience and ends in it...Propositions arrived at by purely logical means are completely empty as regards reality." - Albert Einstein
_EAllusion
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Re: Bloggist plagiarizes me

Post by _EAllusion »

My point is that of all the possible desires that different versions of gods could have, you are a priori picking the one defined as desiring this universe. This has a couple consequences, but the point being made when you criticized me for saying it is that you are just tailoring your explanation to whatever it is we observe. You have defined your God to desire and have the ability to obtain what it is you are seeking to explain. The same trick could be done with literally any hypothetical set of observations. This is not a meaningful explanation for anything. I posted a great deal explaining why, including writings from two major philosophers of science. I recommend just rereading it.
_EAllusion
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Re: Bloggist plagiarizes me

Post by _EAllusion »

dartagnan wrote:
when I asked you to quote your secondary source, I was referring to the post in which you referenced Monod et al.


More later tomorrow, but I just wanted to point out that I never referenced Monod. I think you're reading something Cypress wrote.


My mistake. I apologize.
_EAllusion
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Re: Bloggist plagiarizes me

Post by _EAllusion »

dartagnan wrote:Maybe that's your problem and the source of confusion here? Do you think that by addressing arguments elsewhere on the web, that this somehow counts as a response to mine? Saying it is "similar" to mine means nothing unless I agree.


The same syllogism works for Leslie, who you have repeatedly positively referenced. Hey, write out your own syllogism. You haven't exactly fleshed out your version of the fine-tuning argument. You have referenced them, which I took for granted as being what you actually thought. You're argument, as far as I can tell, is that design explains fine-tuning awesomely because the hypothesis of design entails fine-tuning, but this is extremely unlikely without design in a "random" universe. But that would be the exact syllogism I offered in simple form. So go for it. Set up your premises and conclusion.
If it was, then it was weak. You're not showing I am wrong by pointing out beliefs of the ancient Babylonians or any other ancient theistic civilization.


I'm explaining how the forms of the argument are the same type of God of the Gap argument. To no avail obviously.

Do you think, maybe, that this is not comparable to the anthropic argument? Do you think, maybe, that this is a logical fallacy?

No. It's directly comparable. Which is why this argument is rejected by academia and will continue to be so. And the Kevins of the world will continue to claim that science is proving design all the time, just as they have done for over two centuries.
_EAllusion
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Re: Bloggist plagiarizes me

Post by _EAllusion »

All we know is that if things are exactly as they were, then life would develop.


That is absolutely false. There is no guarantee life would have developed. If that were true, then we'd expect to find life elsewhere in the universe.


Dear lord. Kevin, exactly as they were means just that. Exactly. Let me repeat that. Exactly. No where in the universe, especially the universe we've actually looked at, were conditions exactly as they were on earth, atom by atom, motion by motion, bond by bond. I thought you were going to talk about quantum randomness or something, and you pull this out. Thanks for the science lecture, though. Rock on.
_EAllusion
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Re: Bloggist plagiarizes me

Post by _EAllusion »

If you want the more technical explanation of my point about possible gods, read here:

In the previous section, we have discussed just one of many sorts of deities that might exist. This one happens to be very powerful and rather inscrutable (and is intended to be a model of a generic Judeo-Christian-Islamic sort of deity, though believers are welcome to disagree and propose--and justify--their own interpretations of their favorite deity). However, there are many other sorts of deities that might be postulated as being responsible for the existence of the universe. There are somewhat more limited deities, such as Zeus/Jupiter, there are deities that share their existence with antagonistic deities such as the Zoroastrian Ahura-Mazda/Ahriman pair of deities, there are various Native American deities such as the trickster deity Coyote, there are Australian, Chinese, African, Japanese and East Indian deities, and even many other possible deities that no one on Earth has ever thought of. There could be deities of lifeforms indigenous to planets around the star Arcturus that we should consider, for example.

Now when considering a multiplicity of deities, say D1,D2,...,Di,..., we would have to specify a value of the likelihood function for each individual deity, specifying what the implications would be if that deity were the actual deity that created the universe. In particular, with the "fine-tuning" argument in mind, we would have to specify P(F|Di&L) for every i (probably an infinite set of deities). Assuming that we have a mutually exclusive and exhaustive list of deities, we see the hypothesis ~N revealed to be composite, that is, it is a combination or union of the individual hypotheses Di (i=1,2,...). Our character set doesn't have the usual "wedge" character for "or" (logical disjunction), so we will use 'v' to represent this operation. We then have

~N = D1 v D2 v...v Di v...

Now, the total prior probability of ~N, P(~N|L), has to be divvied up amongst all of the individual subhypotheses Di:

P(~N|L) = P(D1|L) + P(D2|L) + ... + P(Di||L) + ...

where 0<P(Di)<P(~N|L)<1 (assuming that we only consider deities that might exist, and that there are at least two of them). In general, each of the individual prior probabilities P(Di|L) would be very small, since there are so many possible deities. Only if some deities are a priori much more likely than others would any individual deity have an appreciable amount of prior probability.

This means that in general, P(Di|L)<<1 for all i.

Now when we originally considered just N and ~N, we calculated the posterior probability of N given L&F from the prior probabilities of N and ~N given L, and the likelihood functions. Here it would be simpler to look at prior and posterior odds. These are derived straightforwardly from probabilities by the relation

Odds = Probability/(1 - Probability).

This yields a relationship between the prior and posterior odds of N against ~N [using P(N|F&L)+P(~N|F&L)=1]:
P( N|F&L) P(F| N&L) P( N|L)
Posterior Odds = --------- = ---------- x -------
P(~N|F&L) P(F|~N&L) P(~N|L)
= (Bayes Factor) x (Prior Odds)

The Bayes Factor and Prior Odds are given straightforwardly by the two ratios in this formula.

Since P(F|N&L)=1 and P(F|~N&L)<=1, it follows that the posterior odds are greater than or equal to the prior odds (this is a restatement of our first theorem, in terms of odds). This means that observing that F is true cannot decrease our confidence that N is true.

But by using odds instead of probabilities, we can now consider the individual sub-hypotheses that make up ~N. For example, we can calculate prior and posterior odds of N against any individual D_i. We find that
P( N|F&L) P(F| N&L) P( N|L)
Posterior Odds = --------- = --------- x -------
P(Di|F&L) P(F|Di&L) P(Di|L)

This follows because (by footnote 2)

P(N |F&L) = P(F| N&L)P( N|L)/P(F|L),
P(Di|F&L) = P(F|Di&L)P(Di|L)/P(F|L),

and the P(F|L)'s cancel out when you take the ratio.

Now, even if P(F|Di&L)=1, which is the maximum possible, the posterior odds against Di may still be quite large. The reason for this is that the prior probability of ~N has to be shared out amongst a large number of hypotheses Dj, each one greedily demanding its own share of the limited amount of prior probability available. On the other hand, the hypothesis N has no others to share with. In contrast to ~N, which is a compound hypothesis, N is a simple hypothesis. As a consequence, and again assuming that no particular deity is a priori much more likely than any other (it would be incumbent upon the proposer of such a deity to explain why his favorite deity is so much more likely than the others), it follows that the hypothesis of naturalism will end up being much more probable than the hypothesis of any particular deity Di.

This phenomenon is a second manifestation of the Bayesian Ockham's Razor discussed in the Jefferys/Berger article (cited above).

In theory it is now straightforward to calculate the posterior odds of N against ~N if we don't particularly care which deity is the right one. Since the Di form a mutually exclusive and exhaustive set of hypotheses whose union is ~N, ordinary probability theory gives us
P(~N|F&L) = P(D1|F&L) + P(D2|F&L) + ...
= [P(F|D1&L)P(D1|L) + P(F|D2&L)P(D2|L) + ...]/P(F|L)

Assuming we know these numbers, we can now calculate the posterior odds of N against ~N by dividing the above expression into the one we found previously for P(N|F&L). Of course, in practice this may be difficult! However, as can be seen from this formula, the deities Di that contribute most to the denominator (that is, to the supernaturalistic hypothesis) will be the ones that have the largest values of the likelihood function P(F|Di&L) or the largest prior probability P(Di|L) or both. In the first case, it will be because the particular deity is closer to predicting what naturalism predicts (as regards F), and is therefore closer to being a "God-of-the-gaps" deity; in the second, it will be because we already favored that particular deity over others a priori.

http://www.talkreason.org/articles/super.cfm

A priori the diety hypothesis is god of the gaps because we are, again, just picking the deity defined to explain what we observe. That's a trivial argument from ignorance. A posteriori, the deity hypothesis is just as unlikely as our universe existing randomly, because what you are proposing is that your diety, out of the set of infinite set of possible dieties defined as wanting to create all the possible universes that could randomly exist, is the one that happens to exist. But given that, it is an egregious violation of Ockam's razor, since it is easier to assume random universe than random god, then universe or, conversely, metaphysically constricted universe vs. metaphysically constricted God, then universe.
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