Jockers et al. (2008) study. What more is needed? (S/R)

[_Jersey Girl]

That is to say, the Stanford team used the very manuscript (The Oberlin MS/Manuscript Story/The Roman Story--all one and the same) that apologists have used for years to DENY Spalding authorship....to PROVE IT.

So you believe that the Spalding theory has now been proven?

I believe that Spalding, a dead man, has been identified in the Book of Mormon.

I can think of no particular reason to deny that the Spalding/Rigdon theory has merit.

[_Jersey Girl]

That is to say, the Stanford team used the very manuscript (The Oberlin MS/Manuscript Story/The Roman Story--all one and the same) that apologists have used for years to DENY Spalding authorship....to PROVE IT.

So you believe that the Spalding theory has now been proven?

Daniel,

Look at your response to my comments in the above. I stated specifically that Spalding authorship had been proven. Not the entire Spalding/Rigdon theory.

Have you read the study yet?

[_Daniel Peterson]

So you believe that the Spalding theory has now been proven?

I believe that Spalding, a dead man, has been identified in the Book of Mormon.

I can think of no particular reason to deny that the Spalding/Rigdon theory has merit.

Very interesting.

Thanks!

[_Daniel Peterson]

I stated specifically that Spalding authorship had been proven. Not the entire Spalding/Rigdon theory.

I appreciate the clarification.

Have you read the study yet?

I've read substantial portions of it and have a pretty good sense of the overall argument. It's on my lengthy list of things to get to, but it's a bit down that list. (The most urgent need, besides dealing with the effects of the flooding of my basement last week, is to complete a formal book proposal in response to a request from Oxford University Press, on quite another topic.) One of my neighbors is a BYU statistics professor, and, from him and a couple of others in Provo and Logan, I've been kept reasonably well informed about the matter.

[_harmony]

the flooding of my basement last week...

Don't ya hate it when that happens?

My pump house heater chose Monday morning (-7 degrees) to die. So I had frozen pipes for a while, until the replacement thawed things out about noon that day.

[_Daniel Peterson]

the flooding of my basement last week...

Don't ya hate it when that happens?

It hasn't been my all-time favorite week. And, to top it off yesterday, my wife was waiting at a stop light when she was hit by a car from behind. (Heavy snow was falling.) No injuries to her, mercifully, beyond a little whiplash, but more trouble with our material possessions. Perhaps I should go live in an ashram for a while.

My pump house heater chose Monday morning (-7 degrees) to die. So I had frozen pipes for a while, until the replacement thawed things out about noon that day.

You have my sympathy.

[_Uncle Dale]

Dale,

What is your personal strongest theory/evidence for a connection between Smith and Rigdon
prior to Rigdon's conversion?

Solid evidence? Not much, I'm afraid.

I spent some time searching for an 1828 Ohio stagecoach company's
way-bill, listing baggage for passengers J. Smith and S. Rigdon. Never
re-located that obscure item (which may have just been Sam Rigdon
and John Q. Smith).

There is late testimony, allegations, etc. -- but proving any of it to be
fully trustworthy is a chore -- maybe an impossible chore.

In 1826 Elder Lawrence Greatrake published a pamphlet attacking the
reformist Mahoning Baptist Association. He reportedly mentioned the
Campbells, Walter Scott, Adamson Bentley and Sidney Rigdon (who
was then living in southwestern Geauga Co., Ohio, a few miles from
the town where Greatrake had the tract published). In 1945 a
local amateur historian, Dr, Carl M. Brewster wrote an unpublished
manuscript, examining the career of Sidney Rigdon in southern Geauga
Co. He specifically centered his research on local claims, saying
that Joseph Smith, Jr., had traveled to that area during the winter
of 1825-26, and there cooperated with Rigdon in writing the Book of Mormon.

Brewster cited the 1826 Greatrake pamphlet, for contemporary information
on what was being said about Sidney Rigdon at the time. Evidently
Brewster quoted a line from Greatrake, saying that Rigdon had been
associating with a confidence man and glass-looker. However, I cannot
currently prove that Greatrake published such a report in 1826 -- so
take my speculation here with a grain of salt.

Brewster evidently also quoted from some mid-19th century Geauga Co.
newspaper, regarding a money-digging episode in the area in the 1820s.
I do not have this source either, The money-digger and glass-looker
in question may have been Gad Stafford, a near neighbor of the Joseph
Smith, Sr., family, who moved to southwestern Geauga county some time
before 1829 -- he may have spent some time working in Auburn twp.,
in the mid-1820s, before selling his land in Manchester and moving
permanently to Ohio. Pomeroy Tucker identified Gad Stafford as having
been an early follower of Joseph Smith, Jr.

If I could place Gad Stafford (or some other near neighbor of the Smiths)
in Sidney Rigdon's presence, c. 1826-1828, that would probably be enough
"real evidence" to begin to confirm the old local stories about Rigdon having
written the Book of Mormon in southwestern Geauga Co., and of the young
Joseph Smith having traveled there early in 1826 to cooperate with Rigdon.

At least, that is where I would begin conducting research, If circumstances
would allow me to return to Ohio for a few months.

I could say more -- but that should be enough of a response for now.

Dale

[_Jersey Girl]

Dale,

What is your personal strongest theory/evidence for a connection between Smith and Rigdon
prior to Rigdon's conversion?

Solid evidence? Not much, I'm afraid.

I spent some time searching for an 1828 Ohio stagecoach company's
way-bill, listing baggage for passengers J. Smith and S. Rigdon. Never
re-located that obscure item (which may have just been Sam Rigdon
and John Q. Smith).

There is late testimony, allegations, etc. -- but proving any of it to be
fully trustworthy is a chore -- maybe an impossible chore.

In 1826 Elder Lawrence Greatrake published a pamphlet attacking the
reformist Mahoning Baptist Association. He reportedly mentioned the
Campbells, Walter Scott, Adamson Bentley and Sidney Rigdon (who
was then living in southwestern Geauga Co., Ohio, a few miles from
the town where Greatrake had the tract published). In 1945 a
local amateur historian, Dr, Carl M. Brewster wrote an unpublished
manuscript, examining the career of Sidney Rigdon in southern Geauga
Co. He specifically centered his research on local claims, saying
that Joseph Smith, Jr., had traveled to that area during the winter
of 1825-26, and there cooperated with Rigdon in writing the Book of Mormon.

Brewster cited the 1826 Greatrake pamphlet, for contemporary information
on what was being said about Sidney Rigdon at the time. Evidently
Brewster quoted a line from Greatrake, saying that Rigdon had been
associating with a confidence man and glass-looker. However, I cannot
currently prove that Greatrake published such a report in 1826 -- so
take my speculation here with a grain of salt.

Brewster evidently also quoted from some mid-19th century Geauga Co.
newspaper, regarding a money-digging episode in the area in the 1820s.
I do not have this source either, The money-digger and glass-looker
in question may have been Gad Stafford, a near neighbor of the Joseph
Smith, Sr., family, who moved to southwestern Geauga county some time
before 1829 -- he may have spent some time working in Auburn twp.,
in the mid-1820s, before selling his land in Manchester and moving
permanently to Ohio. Pomeroy Tucker identified Gad Stafford as having
been an early follower of Joseph Smith, Jr.

If I could place Gad Stafford (or some other near neighbor of the Smiths)
in Sidney Rigdon's presence, c. 1826-1828, that would probably be enough
"real evidence" to begin to confirm the old local stories about Rigdon having
written the Book of Mormon in southwestern Geauga Co., and of the young
Joseph Smith having traveled there early in 1826 to cooperate with Rigdon.

At least, that is where I would begin conducting research, If circumstances
would allow me to return to Ohio for a few months.

I could say more -- but that should be enough of a response for now.

Dale

Dale, thank you. When I used the word "connection" I was thinking in terms of a third party. I should have been more clear. Could there have been a third party that served as the connection between Smith and Rigdon prior to Rigdon's conversion?

[_Dr. Shades]

Dale, thank you. When I used the word "connection" I was thinking in terms of a third party. I should have been more clear. Could there have been a third party that served as the connection between Smith and Rigdon prior to Rigdon's conversion?

According to Who Really Wrote the Book of Mormon? The Spalding Enigma by Cowdrey, Davis, and Vanick, that third party was most definitely Oliver Cowdery, who was Smith's second cousin and who was employed for a time by Sidney Rigdon before the Book of Mormon came to be.

[_Jersey Girl]

According to Who Really Wrote the Book of Mormon? The Spalding Enigma by Cowdrey, Davis, and Vanick, that third party was most definitely Oliver Cowdery, who was Smith's second cousin and who was employed for a time by Sidney Rigdon before the Book of Mormon came to be.

Thanks. I actually know the answers to most of the questions I've posed. I pose them based on previous discussions here where objections to the S/R theory were to a lack of connection between Rigdon and Smith. Typically, the demand is for evidence of a meeting between Rigdon and Smith prior to Rigdon's conversion. While a meeting may have taken place, the theory doesn't require a face-to-face meeting.

Wasn't Pratt a disciple of Rigdon?