"Live by the lamp of their own conceit"

[_harmony]

I think it was Kimberly who said we should all lick cupcakes and we'll feel better about this stuff!

KA is an ex-Mormon. Are you sure you want to go there?

[_silentkid]

Identify a problem, make an attempt to offer solutions, and then go into action.

If I were still active and still believed in the gospel, these are some changes that I'd like to see made:

1. Church is only Sacrament meeting. Get rid of Sunday School and Priesthood/Relief Society. Those are boring and a waste of time.

2. No more home teaching. It's an annoyance.

3. Get rid of mandatory tithing. Let members pay what they can pay when they want to pay it.

4. Completely revamp the temple ceremony. No more clothing changes. Shorten the movie. Make it not be so boring.

5. Allow non-members/inactive members to witness sealings.

6. Remove the PoGP and D&C from the scriptures. Teach the Book of Mormon as allegory, not history.

7. Hire janitors to clean the chapels again.

8. Don't allow bishops to interview any child, under the age of 18, without a parent present.

I'll think of some more later.

[_Rollo Tomasi]

I didn't even know you attend Church.

Every Sunday (and many days in between).

Basically, the accusations leveled at the brethren in this thread seem more serious than "they are imperfect."

I disagree.

So why do we get to judge him, though?

I see him do hurtful things, and I call him on it.

What's all this about stewardship and all this when we are commanded to forgive all men?

He didn't hurt me, so I have no reason to forgive him. But I will not let him continue to post certain things that I know are contrary to how he's acted towards others here (and elsewhere), and not call him on it.

Because we ought to be telling the leaders how to run things.

No, but we ought to tell them how we feel and what we think ought to be fixed or done better. And they should listen.

[_Daniel Peterson]

He didn't hurt me, so I have no reason to forgive him.

This is great. There are billions of people on this planet who haven't hurt me.

But I'm sure they've done things of which I disapprove, and even things that are genuinely wrong.

Fortunately, I have no reason to forgive them!

[_harmony]

Harmony may have many wonderful qualities, for all I know, but if the sentiments she expresses on line are any valid indicator, she ceased to be a Mormon in any meaningful sense quite some time ago.

Unfair and unjust. CFR.

Unless I've seriously misread her over the years, she disdains the leaders of the Church,

Untrue.

...holds Joseph Smith in some significant degree of contempt,

True, but that has nothing to do with me believing he was a prophet though.

...rejects many if not most or all of the distinctive doctrines of the Church,

I reject polygamy. I can't think of anything else I outright reject.

... repudiates substantial portions (if not the entirety) of the Church's scriptural canon, etc., etc.

I reject Sec 132 outright. I have grave doubts about the Book of Abraham and the rest of the Pearl of Great Price, but I have no problems with most of the D&C, the Book of Mormon, or the Old or New Testaments.

I think she may still have some vestigial connection to Christianity, but I'm not altogether sure of that.

Look across the aisle, the next time you're in the temple. The lady with the white hair could be me.

[_Rollo Tomasi]

Harmony may have many wonderful qualities, for all I know, but if the sentiments she expresses on line are any valid indicator, she ceased to be a Mormon in any meaningful sense quite some time ago.

This is utter BS. Harmony may have long ago stopped being a member of the 'Morg collective,' but she's as LDS in substance than you or anyone else here.

Unless I've seriously misread her over the years, she disdains the leaders of the Church ....

The "leaders" are not the Church, they are the institution, and there's a big difference.

... holds Joseph Smith in some significant degree of contempt ....

Many LDS do when it comes to some of his more controversial teachings. Even you hate his (and many other Church presidents') hemispheric view of Book of Mormon geography.

... rejects many if not most or all of the distinctive doctrines of the Church ....

You mean like modern-day Native Americans being "Lamanites"? Or that the Book of Mormon covered North America? Oops, that was you and the other FARMSboys. D'oh!

... repudiates substantial portions (if not the entirety) of the Church's scriptural canon ....

As if you believe the Book of Abraham came from the papyrus ....

I think she may still have some vestigial connection to Christianity, but I'm not altogether sure of that.

[DELETED: 2. No personal attacks allowed]

[There is a thin line here. I'm just attempting to walk it, moderatorially speaking.]

[_Rollo Tomasi]

He didn't hurt me, so I have no reason to forgive him.

This is great. There are billions of people on this planet who haven't hurt me.

But I'm sure they've done things of which I disapprove, and even things that are genuinely wrong.

Fortunately, I have no reason to forgive them!

You're taking on a heavy burden. Perhaps you should just focus on the lives you have harmed with your snitching.

[_Daniel Peterson]

she's as LDS in substance than you or anyone else here.

Apart from the fact that she rejects many if not most LDS claims, that may well be true.

Unless I've seriously misread her over the years, she disdains the leaders of the Church ....

The "leaders" are not the Church, they are the institution, and there's a big difference.

That's rather facile. In Mormonism, as believing Mormons understand it, separating the prophets and apostles from Mormonism isn't so easy.

And I'm not sure that I understand your apparent distinction between "the Church" and "the institution."

you hate his (and many other Church presidents') hemispheric view of Book of Mormon geography.

LOL. I learn all sorts of new things about what I think here on this invaluable message board!

I would deny your claim, but, instead, I bow to your superior knowledge of my views.

... rejects many if not most or all of the distinctive doctrines of the Church ....

You mean like modern-day Native Americans being "Lamanites"?

Yes, she probably rejects that.

Unlike mainstream members of the Church such as myself.

Or that the Book of Mormon covered North America?

Yes, she probably rejects that.

Unlike mainstream members of the Church such as myself.

Oops, that was you and the other FARMSboys.

Really? I would deny your claim, but, instead, I bow to your superior knowledge of my views and those of my friends. They must have confided in you what they've never confided in me. (I'm so jealous!)

D'oh!

Indeed.

... repudiates substantial portions (if not the entirety) of the Church's scriptural canon ....

As if you believe the Book of Abraham came from the papyrus ....

Don't I believe that?

Well, if anybody would know what I believe, surely it would be you.

And do I altogether reject the Book of Abraham? Please advise.

[DELETED: 2. No personal attacks allowed]

[DELETED] I'm driven by an urgent need to obliterate beauty, love, and happiness.

As evidence, I offer this picture of me contemplating a happy, affectionate family:

[_Jason Bourne]

I've had at least some dealing with every member of the current Quorum of the Twelve and the current First Presidency, and with several past members of those quorums. In some cases, I've had a fair amount of contact with them. I'm a reasonably decent judge of character, I think, and I've found them -- and I emphatically include President Packer in this; I've spent time with him in his home and elsewhere (my first personal encounter with him being all the way back in early 1974, in Switzerland) -- to be, in every case, kind, modest, dedicated, hard-working, and sincere men.

[DELETED: 2. No personal attacks allowed]

[DELETED: 2. No personal attacks allowed]

[_Daniel Peterson]

Perhaps you should just focus on the lives you have harmed with your snitching.

Before I arrived in my neighborhood it was full of happy people living with their loving, affectionate families in happy homes.

Now, this blighted community is named Mordor.

Coincidence? I think not.