Peterson Pace - "Those who can, do ....."

[_The Nehor]

It seems sound to me. Here's what I got:

D: Illiteracy in Afghanistan is a complex issue with many facets.
H: CAUSED BY ISLAM!
D: The form of Islam impacts this but is not the sole cause.
H: HOW DARE YOU DEFEND THEM???
D: I'm not defending those who do wrong but I am defending those trying to do right.
H: THEY'RE MONSTEROUS FAILURES!!! THAT LITERACY IS SO LOW PROVES THAT.
D: They're a weak government without enough power to have an impact. This is akin to blaming Lincoln for poor education in the Confederacy.
H: IF THEY LOVED THE PEOPLE THEY'D DO MORE!!! I DO.
D: I'm glad of that and I help out as I can too.
H: YOU'RE AN ACADEMIC!!! I DO REAL HELP. I GET PAID TO RAISE FUNDS.
D: I'm glad.
H: I VISIT BURNED OUT SCHOOLS!!!
D: Whatever.
H: I SAVE MILLIONS OF LIVES EVERYDAY!!!!
D: Uh-huh.....

[_asbestosman]

Nehor:

Daniel Peterson expressed anger, nay outrage too. While I agree with Daniel Peterson's reasoning inasmuch as he sticks to his main point, I find your caricature lacking in expressing why Harmony might be so angry too. I'm not saying Daniel Peterson started it. I'm not even saying that Daniel Peterson shouldn't have felt anger at the accusations leveled against him nor that Harmony shouldn't have felt anger. I'm just saying that the caricature misses the interplay between the two which probably caused the situation to escalate.

[_Daniel Peterson]

I actually think that Nehor's alleged caricature is a reasonably accurate summary of some of the main points of the exchange. But could you clarify your comment a bit?

Daniel Peterson expressed anger, nay outrage too. While I agree with Daniel Peterson's reasoning inasmuch as he sticks to his main point, I find your caricature lacking in expressing why Harmony might be so angry too. I'm not saying Daniel Peterson started it. I'm not even saying that Daniel Peterson shouldn't have felt anger at the accusations leveled against him nor that Harmony shouldn't have felt anger.

Why should Harmony be angry at me?

I'm just saying that the caricature misses the interplay between the two which probably caused the situation to escalate.

What have I said to justify Harmony's charge that I'm indifferent to injustice and suffering?

How, even if I were callously indifferent to the oppression of Afghan women, and even if I really didn't care about the poor, would that be relevant to the question of whether Islam, as such, opposes, let alone punishes, the education of women?

I genuinely don't understand why my taking the position that I did -- which seems to me plainly supported by Islamic teaching, statements from Muhammad, contemporary statistics, and basic logic, as well as by (for what it's worth) my own extensive experience with and among Muslims over more than three decades (including speaking at Muslim schools and universities in the United States, Malaysia, Indonesia, Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Australia, and etc.) -- should open me to such personal attack.

Here, incidentally, are some links to specifically Muslim schools specifically for girls:

In Canada:

http://www.muslimgirlsschool.com/

In the United Kingdom:

http://www.pmghs.com/

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2007/uksi_20071982_en_1

http://www.axcis.co.uk/48915.html

A women's university in Dubai:

http://www.zu.ac.ae/main/

Note the various women's colleges listed for Islamic nations here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cu ... ges#Jordan

These links took perhaps two minutes to gather. There are hundreds if not thousands more.

Even Al-Azhar, in Egypt -- the premiere Sunni Islamic university in the Arab world -- has been co-educational for nearly half a century. It admitted women in 1961. Princeton University admitted women in 1969.

[_Dr. Shades]

Is there any serious poster here -- I'm talking about the ones who like to discuss ideas, not those who prefer drive-by insults -- who can't understand the point I've tried to make on this thread about Islam and the education of women? Have I been too opaque? Have the reasons I've supplied for my viewpoint been too obscure?

I understand your general points, but I'd nevertheless like you to address a final controversy: Have educated Muslim women become so thanks to adherence to Islamic teachings or thanks to departure from Islamic teachings?

[_Daniel Peterson]

I understand your general points, but I'd nevertheless like you to address a final controversy: Have educated Muslim women become so thanks to adherence to Islamic teachings or thanks to departure from Islamic teachings?

Since, as I quoted earlier in the thread, there are plain statements from the Prophet Muhammad (hadith, as they're called) that call for the education of women -- and I could have multiplied them several times -- it seems to me that it would be very difficult to claim that, as a whole, Muslim women who have gained educations have done so as a departure from Islamic teachings.

And it seems to me very difficult to argue that the Muslim schools and universities to which I've provided a number of links, and at which I've spoken, where devoutly Muslim teachers and administrators work to educate devout Muslim girls and women -- and, again, there are many more than I have cited -- regard their efforts to educate Muslim girls and women as a departure from the teachings of Islam.

[_Dr. Shades]

Since, as I quoted earlier in the thread, there are plain statements from the Prophet Muhammad (hadith, as they're called) that call for the education of women -- and I could have multiplied them several times -- it seems to me that it would be very difficult to claim that, as a whole, Muslim women who have gained educations have done so as a departure from Islamic teachings.

Okay, now we're making progress, I think.

In that case, where did the Taliban (and, I imagine, other such extremist groups) get its justification for denying women an education?

[_The Nehor]

Since, as I quoted earlier in the thread, there are plain statements from the Prophet Muhammad (hadith, as they're called) that call for the education of women -- and I could have multiplied them several times -- it seems to me that it would be very difficult to claim that, as a whole, Muslim women who have gained educations have done so as a departure from Islamic teachings.

Okay, now we're making progress, I think.

In that case, where did the Taliban (and, I imagine, other such extremist groups) get its justification for denying women an education?

The same place feudal Europe got the idea that serfs were inferior in the sight of God by birth and would continue to serve lords in Heaven out of Christ's teachings of egalitarianism and the afterlife. The same place Mormons got the idea that jello with carrots makes a good dessert despite the God-given revulsion at the sight.

They made it up.

[_why me]

You may not believe it, but there were good things in Soviet Union, and in any of their servant country.
We didn't choose that status. It was forced, we should have lived in it. We should have shown permanent joy to survive.
We really rejoiced over that few good thing. For example, the education and its environment was good.

The only problem of good things were that on the other side there were fifty times more thing .. ehm .. not too good.
There is a hungarian saying: "Even a blind hen can find a grain." And our leaders was blind, in this sense.

The wildest anti-mormons can admit that there are good things in Mormonism, it makes no sense to deny it. (There may be in scientology, even I know none.)

But, You know, the risks and side effects. (21000 hits on Google ...)

These days the situation in Hungary is dire. The economy is in the toilet. When I was in hungary at the beginning of the 21st century the people that I spoke with missed the old times of communism. I am sure that it is no different now. Freedom did not turn out to be the success that was promised.

[_Daniel Peterson]

Okay, now we're making progress, I think.

We've been making progress since you suggested that Islam, as such, punishes the education of women, and I corrected you.

In that case, where did the Taliban (and, I imagine, other such extremist groups) get its justification for denying women an education?

I would have to read much more extensively than I have in the writings of the Taliban to know precisely where they got their notions about the education of women. But they're clearly out of the Islamic mainstream. So much so, in fact, that even the Islamic Republic of Iran denounced their treatment of women some years back, pronouncing the Taliban tyranny in Aghanistan "the shame of Islam."

[_asbestosman]

I actually think that Nehor's alleged caricature is a reasonably accurate summary of some of the main points of the exchange. But could you clarify your comment a bit?

Daniel Peterson expressed anger, nay outrage too. While I agree with Daniel Peterson's reasoning inasmuch as he sticks to his main point, I find your caricature lacking in expressing why Harmony might be so angry too. I'm not saying Daniel Peterson started it. I'm not even saying that Daniel Peterson shouldn't have felt anger at the accusations leveled against him nor that Harmony shouldn't have felt anger.

Why should Harmony be angry at me?

I wasn't trying to say that you did something wrong. My intent was to say that a harsh response, even if justified, generally evokes a harsh counter-response.

Should your resonse have been less harsh? I cannot say. I don't know what either of you know, do, or experience. Even if I did, sometimes a harsh resonse is best and sometimes a soft answer is more effective. It takes maturity and experience to recognize when to use which, and that's something I'm still working on.

I'm just saying that the caricature misses the interplay between the two which probably caused the situation to escalate.

What have I said to justify Harmony's charge that I'm indifferent to injustice and suffering?

Nothing that I'm aware of.

How, even if I were callously indifferent to the oppression of Afghan women, and even if I really didn't care about the poor, would that be relevant to the question of whether Islam, as such, opposes, let alone punishes, the education of women?

Nothing, and I agree with your main point. The thing I am less certain about is whether a harsh response was most effective. Perhaps it was. I cannot say.

I genuinely don't understand why my taking the position that I did -- which seems to me plainly supported by Islamic teaching, statements from Muhammad, contemporary statistics, and basic logic, as well as by (for what it's worth) my own extensive experience with and among Muslims over more than three decades (including speaking at Muslim schools and universities in the United States, Malaysia, Indonesia, Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Australia, and etc.) -- should open me to such personal attack.

I don't see why that should either. I think there may be a reason Harmony is so passionate about the education of Afghan women that it becomes difficult for her to discuss it calmly and rationally. You also appear passionate about it while yet remaining rational about the problem. I don't wish to give Harmony a blank check for losing her temper, but I don't want her to think that I'm blaming her for being upset. That she's upset is understandable. That anger makes her less rational is also understandable (I get that way too), but not quite so excusable.

Yet I don't really think it's my buisness to correct either of you. I'm just trying to say that there was anger on both sides--leaving aside the question of who was more justified. Leaving out the fact that anger was shown on both sides from Nehor's caricature seemed a bit unfair to me. Plenty in this thread has been unfair. The reason I commented about it in the caricature is because I thought the caricature would just aggrivate the situation for Harmony and I was hoping that maybe my comments would have helped. I new think the precise opposite especially since I've spelled out that I'm not happy with the way she expressed her anger--precisely the thing I was trying to avoid. However, since leaving it alone makes it look like I'm on her side to the condemnation of you, I thought it to be the lesser of two evils at this point. I'm still not trying to condemn her though.