All of the supernatural characters of Christianity

[_huckelberry]

Buffalo, I feel quite comfortable with the word "share" for El and Jewish faith. I do not feel comfortble with steal. I think the Biblical faith shares a lot with Pagan religion. In fact for me personally that common ground is important to how I can understand the Biblical faith as leading to important truth. I think all forms of faith are conceptually reaching for what is most valuable to humans. I do not think it would make sense to say they are all equally useful but they exist because people have found some value in them. I believe there is only one God and all people have some sense of that God which they may, using their imagination, make images of.

I am not supporting the LDS idea of history of revelation. In fact I suspect that picture is a hopeless tangle and confusion. Comparing my view of Mormon revelation to how I see revelation. I think Mormon imagination as capable of pointing to real values though at other times, such as with polygamy, I suspect it can distort values. I imagine the same combination of help and hinder occurs in all sorts of religion, "Pagan" or not.

You noted,"If you think El is a real God, do you accept the earliest “revelations” about him? Shouldn’t they take precedence over the ideas of late comers like the Jews?"

I believe El is a name and image of the divine source of our life. I do not believe the stories or rituals associated with him have any special revelation. In general I see no reason to prioritize earlier revelations. If there is some glimmer from God behind the image El I see no reason to think that glimmer to be more important than Moses hearing God say that He knows the slaves suffering and will set them free. That revelation opened doors to meaning for people which humans are still wrestling with.(both searching for and hiding from )

[_Jersey Girl]

Tacitus makes no other mention of Christians. They are not in any other part of his history. In his writings, he is unaware of a Christian movement. As a "first hand" source, he is also many years too late.

emilysmith,

What mention of Christians by Tacitus are you referring to?

[_Buffalo]

Buffalo, I feel quite comfortable with the word "share" for El and Jewish faith. I do not feel comfortble with steal. I think the Biblical faith shares a lot with Pagan religion. In fact for me personally that common ground is important to how I can understand the Biblical faith as leading to important truth. I think all forms of faith are conceptually reaching for what is most valuable to humans. I do not think it would make sense to say they are all equally useful but they exist because people have found some value in them. I believe there is only one God and all people have some sense of that God which they may, using their imagination, make images of.

I am not supporting the LDS idea of history of revelation. In fact I suspect that picture is a hopeless tangle and confusion. Comparing my view of Mormon revelation to how I see revelation. I think Mormon imagination as capable of pointing to real values though at other times, such as with polygamy, I suspect it can distort values. I imagine the same combination of help and hinder occurs in all sorts of religion, "Pagan" or not.

You noted,"If you think El is a real God, do you accept the earliest “revelations” about him? Shouldn’t they take precedence over the ideas of late comers like the Jews?"

I believe El is a name and image of the divine source of our life. I do not believe the stories or rituals associated with him have any special revelation. In general I see no reason to prioritize earlier revelations. If there is some glimmer from God behind the image El I see no reason to think that glimmer to be more important than Moses hearing God say that He knows the slaves suffering and will set them free. That revelation opened doors to meaning for people which humans are still wrestling with.(both searching for and hiding from )

Keeping your concept of God and your idea of how he reveals himself in mind, how would the history of god and our changing concepts of god be different if God was simply a fiction invented by humans? Would we be able to distinguish the results of that from what we see looking back now?

For fun, here's an example of Ugaritic sacred poetry about this El who you think is a name and image of the divine source of our life (personally I'd be more inclined to give credit for that to my parents):

Long is El's penis like Sea's.
El's penis is like that of Flood...
El bends his bowstave,
He draws his mighty shaft...
El seduces his wives,
Lo, the two women cry:
O husband! husband! streched is your bowstave,
Drawn is your mighty shaft...
The women are (now) El's wives...
The two travail and give birth...

[_huckelberry]

Buffalo asks,
"how would the history of god and our changing concepts of god be different if God was simply a fiction invented by humans?"

this sounds to me like an invitation to speculation with lots of ambiguity. It sounds a bit like this sort of question. What would you imagine God to be doing if everything you think he does is actually a natural process? Obviously I wouldn't imagine God doing anything in that case. I do however realize that this question is a bit different.

If I follow my own picture of revelation then I would figure that if God was a fiction there would then be an empty space in the historical location of Jesus. There would be Islam in the west and Buddism in the east. But then perhaps neither of those would have developed. People instead would just be stuck with either Els penis or perhaps Caesar's. Or then maybe we could accomplish that religionless utopia (or some nightmare, who knows)

[_emilysmith]

emilysmith,

What mention of Christians by Tacitus are you referring to?

Really, it is Milesius who was referring to it, I believe.

But all human efforts, all the lavish gifts of the emperor, and the propitiations of the gods, did not banish the sinister belief that the conflagration was the result of an order. Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called 'Chrestians' by the populace.

Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilate, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their center and become popular.

Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind. Mockery of every sort was added to their deaths. Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and perished, or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt, to serve as a nightly illumination, when daylight had expired.

[_Buffalo]

Buffalo asks,
"how would the history of god and our changing concepts of god be different if God was simply a fiction invented by humans?"

this sounds to me like an invitation to speculation with lots of ambiguity. It sounds a bit like this sort of question. What would you imagine God to be doing if everything you think he does is actually a natural process? Obviously I wouldn't imagine God doing anything in that case. I do however realize that this question is a bit different.

If I follow my own picture of revelation then I would figure that if God was a fiction there would then be an empty space in the historical location of Jesus. There would be Islam in the west and Buddism in the east. But then perhaps neither of those would have developed. People instead would just be stuck with either Els penis or perhaps Caesar's. Or then maybe we could accomplish that religionless utopia (or some nightmare, who knows)

What makes Jesus different from all of the other religious figures, mythical and real? Why would there be a Jesus' shaped hole in history?

[_karl61]

Did the Jews steal El from the Canaanites or are they just a branch of Canaanites, who rebelled, went thirty miles to the east, until an angry Canaanite followed with a posse and struck the leader dead with a stone to the head, a follow up stone to a defenseless woman's head who questioned his action.

[_emilysmith]

The Israelites and Judahites were not just Canaanites, but a mix of different peoples who filled the region as various city states fell due to a number of circumstances. No longer able to sustain themselves in cities, people had to carve out their own way and live off of the land, making their own laws and incorporating beliefs and customs from a number of cultures. It was a hot spot for cultural syncretism as a land, sparse with people, began to fill up with those who had been displaced.

[_huckelberry]

buffalo wonders,
"What makes Jesus different from all of the other religious figures, mythical and real? Why would there be a Jesus' shaped hole in history?

Jesus has had a large affect on history by the influence he has had on people and continues to have.

I can only remark of what I see, I cannot oblige others to have the same perception. I see Jesus as establishing the best inspiration to human race that we have had in the last three million year. He has not yet transformed the world into his hope but has caused millions of people to try. So for affirming the value of people including the proletariat and for affirming that the kingdom of God is worth the price I see Jesus as of much more value than other religous leaders.

I have heard people chase the idea that there must be some value that Jesus creates that does not exist at all elsewhere. I do not believe there is and I do not believe there should be. Jesus affirms the values that we all recognize. He does not invent values to force on people. He invites people to become who our own sense of values we hope we could be. He has a stratagy for getting past the problem that people may recognize his values but do not think realizing them is possible.We may succeed with God using love and forgiveness for our fellow people.

[_emilysmith]

What was it about the teachings of Jesus that were superior to anything that came before?