A Very Limited Geography

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_Simon Southerton
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Re: A Very Limited Geography

Post by _Simon Southerton »

MCB wrote:So, Simon, is it possible to determine if there is any Scandinavian and/or Irish DNA among the Natives of North America, dating between 600 AD and 1450 AD, based upon degree of fragmentation?


Yes. If Scandinavian DNA is present it will be easy to detect. I wouldn't be surprised if they are looking now. There is also quite compelling evidence that Polynesians arrived in California (fish hooks and boat making technology has Poly influence) and it should be possible to detect this as well.


MCB wrote: Do those results also do serious damage to the theory that the Olmecs came from Africa?


Lethal damage. There is absolutely no DNA evidence of a pre-Columbian arrival of DNA from anywhere but Siberia.
LDS apologetics --> "It's not the crime, it's the cover-up, which creates the scandal."
"Bigfoot is a crucial part of the ecosystem, if he exists. So let's all help keep Bigfoot possibly alive for future generations to enjoy, unless he doesn't exist." - Futurama
_Runtu
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Re: A Very Limited Geography

Post by _Runtu »

Simon Southerton wrote:Lethal damage. There is absolutely no DNA evidence of a pre-Columbian arrival of DNA from anywhere but Siberia.


I hardly think that we should take anything you say over the folks at NAMIRS, who clearly know more about DNA research than you do. ;-)

Nice to see you here, Simon.
Runtu's Rincón

If you just talk, I find that your mouth comes out with stuff. -- Karl Pilkington
_Simon Southerton
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Re: A Very Limited Geography

Post by _Simon Southerton »

stemelbow wrote:This appears to be nothing more than sheer dogmatism it seems to me. The derivation is and will perhaps always be in question. While theories abound in regards to it all, nothing is so definitive, it seems. There are far too many examples of not knowing origins of peoples, like jews themselves, it is just unreasonable, it seems to me, to suggest such clear cut, white and black, thinking on this topic. Indeed as alluded to, even the idea of what could possibly be Lehite DNA is unknown. And as I understand, the assumption that we can understand ancient Israelite DNA based on modern Jewish studies is an absurdity, an assumption, in consideration of the data, that doesn't make much sense.

In all this, its not the LGT alone that causes problems for the DNA critique of the religion, indeed that would only be a small part of it, but the assumption that we can define the DNA of ancient Israelites and the origins of the "Native" american peoles.

In the end, this really is a weak argument taken as a whole. Not much of anything but assumption and bias., it seems to me.


Hi Stem,

I can appreciate why the statements of mine appear dogmatic. The reason for this is the nature of DNA evidence. It is much more clear cut (black and white) than archaeological evidence, the interpretation of which is much more subjective. The sorts of comparisons being done between the DNA lineages of American Indians are being done in hundreds of thousands species by probably millions of scientists. It basically boils down to simple mathematics. DNA lineages with more differences are more distantly related and lineages that are very similar are closely related. By counting the differences you get very objective measures of relatedness. Try using your defense to argue that DNA evidence is weak when used in criminal investigations and see how far you get.

We know what the DNA lineages of current Middle Eastern populations (Israelites, Arabs etc) look like. This tells us that their ancestors had these lineages. They are similar to the lineages of Europeans. That's why I focused on the 5 European lineages in Mesoamericans. The problem for the LGT crowd is not the difficulty of detecting Israelite DNA. It is the overwhelming presence of Asian DNA.

I apologize if I come across as dogmatic. Molecular biologists are accused of this quite often, but the evidence they are dealing with is extremely compelling and far less ambiguous that the evidence archaeologists have to deal with. One of the most exciting fields that is emerging now is molecular archaeology. Detailed analysis of many ancient DNA samples. This is where the next big breakthroughs are going to come if the two camps can get along with each other.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Apr 27, 2011 12:18 am, edited 2 times in total.
LDS apologetics --> "It's not the crime, it's the cover-up, which creates the scandal."
"Bigfoot is a crucial part of the ecosystem, if he exists. So let's all help keep Bigfoot possibly alive for future generations to enjoy, unless he doesn't exist." - Futurama
_Simon Southerton
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Re: A Very Limited Geography

Post by _Simon Southerton »

Nomad wrote:While there might still be a group of blindly stubborn Beringia-only scholars out there, the prevailing trend is towards the recognition that ancient migrations to the Americas occurred as well via both the North Atlantic and the South Pacific. Evidence from multiple disciplines has made this pretty much a foregone conclusion among the new generation of anthropologists and archaeologists.


You are incorrect. There is now a consensus among leading scholars that all of the ancestors of American Indians came through Beringia. The North Atlantic theory (Solutrean) is being argued by a couple of fringe archaeologists as an explanation for the appearance of the Clovis technology. This theory has been thoroughly debunked on both archaeological and genetic grounds, but the guys promoting it are bunkering down and will keep fighting till they die. There certainly could have been the odd small party of Polynesians who landed, but there is no evidence they had any significant impact.
LDS apologetics --> "It's not the crime, it's the cover-up, which creates the scandal."
"Bigfoot is a crucial part of the ecosystem, if he exists. So let's all help keep Bigfoot possibly alive for future generations to enjoy, unless he doesn't exist." - Futurama
_Joseph
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Re: A Very Limited Geography

Post by _Joseph »

"LGT seems to have come well before DNA came onto the scene".

*************************************

Of course it did. Anything to try and explain a fairy tale that so many believe is true. Millions die in great civilizations and these idiots want people to believe it was less than 30 people who lived in 3 square city blocks and rode modified pigs pulling chariots.
"This is how INGORNAT these fools are!" - darricktevenson

Bow your head and mutter, what in hell am I doing here?

infaymos wrote: "Peterson is the defacto king ping of the Mormon Apologetic world."
_moksha
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Re: A Very Limited Geography

Post by _moksha »

Will Schryver wrote:
Simon Southerton wrote:LGT was a response to earlier science showing a lack of archaeological evidence supporting Book of Mormon.

No, it wasn't. It was, quite demonstrably, an outgrowth of the concerted Book of Mormon study conducted by the first post-pioneering generation of Latter-day Saints.


Are you referring to the data presented by President Spencer W. Kimball that,

"The day of the Lamanites in nigh. For years they have been growing delightsome, and they are now becoming white and delightsome, as they were promised. [...] The children in the home placement program in Utah are often lighter than their brothers and sisters in the hogans on the reservation.

At one meeting a father and mother and their sixteen-year-old daughter were present, the little member girl- sixteen- sitting between the darker father and mother, and it was evident she was several shades lighter than her parents- on the same reservation, in the same hogan, subject to the same sun and wind and weather."

"There was the doctor in a Utah city who for two years had had an Indian boy in his home who stated that he was some shades lighter than the younger brother just coming into the program from the reservation. These young members of the Church are changing to whiteness and to delightsomeness. One white elder jokingly said that he and his companion were donating blood regularly to the hospital in the hope that the process might be accelerated."
Cry Heaven and let loose the Penguins of Peace
_Inconceivable
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Re: A Very Limited Geography

Post by _Inconceivable »

I would love to see that episode where Shryver, Ash, Peterson, Gardner et al. vote Spencer Kimball off their little island.
_Defender
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Re: A Very Limited Geography

Post by _Defender »

I grow tired of this nonsense, every year this board sinks to new lows under the banner of "Doctor Scratch." And now Simon Southerton registers on MDB? I've been watching these games for years and now is the time to stand and say something.

Two can play at the "Doctor Scratch" game, I have a thread or two that would embarrass the critics right out of their socks. Perhaps the critics remember, oh, a few years back, professor William J. Hamblin began a thread on the MAD board where he shut down this nonsense Mr. Southerton is on about for good, and put the critics into a blind panic.

Professor Hamblin theorized that given recent archeological and genetic findings, that a small group of emigrating Jews landing haphazardly on the coast of a large and thriving civilization would have eventually had their identity wiped out and there would be nothing left to find. He then looked back into the data, at the thousands of pages of research done by his peers, and saw that no evidence of the Book of Mormon people had been discovered. This confirmed his test hypothesis, thus proving the antiquity of the Book of Mormon.

The critics couldn't handle that! They swarmed to the thread squeaking and complaining. The moderators saw the butt-kicking the critics were taking, and pegged the thread to the top of the forum for nearly a year! The critics had such a hard time getting an argument off the ground that most had to either be banned from the thread, or their posts deleted! lol!

I'm waiting for MAD to get that post migrated to the new board, but later on I might share some quotes I have - oh no, you can't hide "critics" - saved and we'll then see who's ready to talk DNA evidence and who's ready to dance!
_Infymus
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Re: A Very Limited Geography

Post by _Infymus »

Defender wrote:I grow tired of this nonsense, every year this board sinks to new lows under the banner of "Doctor Scratch." And now Simon Southerton registers on MDB? I've been watching these games for years and now is the time to stand and say something.


All these years and now here, today, this thread... You have just had enough!

Nice first post.
_Kishkumen
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Re: A Very Limited Geography

Post by _Kishkumen »

Defender wrote:Professor Hamblin theorized that given recent archeological and genetic findings, that a small group of emigrating Jews landing haphazardly on the coast of a large and thriving civilization would have eventually had their identity wiped out and there would be nothing left to find. He then looked back into the data, at the thousands of pages of research done by his peers, and saw that no evidence of the Book of Mormon people had been discovered. This confirmed his test hypothesis, thus proving the antiquity of the Book of Mormon.


Doctor Scratch, is that you? This is some kind of joke, right?

LOL. I get it!

Hey, I have one for you, Doctor. Given recent findings in archaeology and genetics, I hypothesize that a small band of beings from another galaxy settled in our midst many thousands of years ago. They gave up their technology voluntarily because its abuse had destroyed their civilization. They interbred with homo sapiens, but (guess what?!?!?!) there is no evidence of them today. Ergo, they existed. QED.

Hahahah!!! What a card you are, Doctor.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
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