A Talk Last Night With My Daughter

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_Darth J
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Re: A Talk Last Night With My Daughter

Post by _Darth J »

why me wrote:
Darth J wrote:
And once you determine the Book of Mormon is true, you can join the Community of Christ, which reveres the Book of Mormon as scripture and ordains women to the priesthood.
.


The community of Christ are stuck at 200,000. They aren't going anywhere. But you can join, if you wish.


Let's once again review your exact words: "The question eventually comes down to the Book of Mormon. Is it true or not?"

Thank you for conceding that your pronouncement is mistaken, and that it does not simply "come down to the Book of Mormon." See also: David Whitmer

Did you have any particular reason to offer as to why the LDS branch of Mormonism is the true one, other than it purports to have the largest number of theoretical members?

The Mormon Apologetics Articles of Faith

1. We believe that it is self-explanatory that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in its modern form is the same church that Joseph Smith started. It is therefore unnecessary to engage in any apologetic defense of why the Brighamite branch of Mormonism remained the true church, or why the Wilford Woodruff branch of Mormonism remained the true church.
_angsty
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Re: A Talk Last Night With My Daughter

Post by _angsty »

consiglieri wrote:
So, now to the point. Any advice?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri


Speaking as one who was just on the receiving end of of a very clumsy religious intervention attempted long-distance by a horde of in-laws, I would suggest that you just continue to honor your daughter as the individual you raised her to be, nurture the relationship, and make sure that she feels comfortable talking to you openly.

My parents took that approach. It hasn't brought me back to the fold, but it has enabled a mutual respect and understanding in the face of vastly different intellectual commitments. Plus, knowing that their relationship with me clearly is not driven by a gospel agenda, makes me feel exceptionally loved.

I've always been close to my mother, and me leaving the church changed our relationship-- it had to. We had to learn to talk about different things, and to not take mutual belief for granted. My mother has made an effort to understand the informal logical fallacies (as I requested) and has done some reading on critical thinking so that she could better understand my perspective (and major props to her for that-- all while being Relief Society Prez).

At the same time, I still talk with my mother about church, understand the lingo, certainly haven't forgotten scripture-stories etc., and my mother shares with me stuff about her calling and we talk about her beliefs and what they accomplish for her. And-- she has been completely supportive of my participation in a local UU congregation. She is just happy that I am engaged in a community of people that are doing good in the world and she has been very interested in the programs and classes offered.

Although I know that me leaving the church behind has probably been the most painful experience of her life, she has respected me nonetheless and our relationship has become something different, and actually more personal, than it was before when we agreed on just about everything. It's wonderful to have a parent like that (and I have two!). I know it can't be easy for her-- she knows what she wants for me-- and I love and respect her for letting me find my own way-- and for being willing to grow personally enough to still be able to talk with me. It wasn't easy. It was scary as hell. And she did it-- because she loves me.

My in-laws have chosen a different route. Although we have never tried to deconvert anyone, and we have been respectful and polite, they aren't comfortable talking with us about our "church issues" at all. Besides the occasional emotional outburst, it doesn't come up (at least not while we are present). It's the elephant in the room-- breathing heavily down our necks. They're clearly not comfortable with the give and take of substantial dialogue.

They have made no effort to understand us. Any religious discussion has been one-sided-- we're expected to hear them out, but not respond. If they accidentally get curious and ask a question, they shut us down as soon as we begin to answer. We couldn't even bring up our participation in the UU community without my mother-in-law freaking out completely and using it as an opportunity to witness to us of her beliefs in her church along with the obvious inferiority of all others.

This morning we received a surprise belated Christmas package from them. In the package was a series of letters- one from each of the believing family members- bearing testimony, imploring us to return to the fold, and challenging us to read the Book of Mormon within a set period of time. If I were in an especially nasty mood, and the letters weren't from people I know and love, I'd be tempted to post them on RfM and subject them to the ridicule they would surely get from my friends there. The package also included a painstakingly-crafted, personalized, dated reading journal with reading assignments divvied up, and a little room for our "thoughts and feelings". We each got an official 'LDS Scripture Marker' pencil, and a bookmark that had all the chapters on it so that we could cross them off as we progressed.

Now, I do understand their motives-- that it was a gesture from their very hearts, meant with sincerity and love. And I'll appreciate that for what it is. But, it was also wildly inappropriate-- as inappropriate as it would be for me to send them a load of critical thinking books and challenge them to read them on a given schedule. I do believe they would benefit from them greatly. I believe our relationships would be improved if they understood and memorized my twenty-five favorite informal logical fallacies. But it is just not my business. They haven't asked for my input, and we're not close enough that I would dare to offer it uninvited-- it would be unacceptable, and insulting. They have my phone number, they know I've got a Philosophy degree, and they know that critical thinking and logic are my bread and butter. If they want to talk about it, I'll leave it to them to bring it up. I respect that their religious convictions are deeply personal they don't have to meet my approval.

I'll love them anyway, but by choosing to focus consistently on our rejection of their religious beliefs, and refusing to even attempt to understand us, they've managed to behave very badly and just alienate us further. They haven't respected us as individuals with personal boundaries. They haven't respected us as a family unit of our own.

I hope this doesn't sound angry-- I'm not really close enough with his family to be particularly offended on a personal level. Plus the cultural divide between us has always been a real problem (I'm not from Utah). It's just another swing and a miss on their part, and a slightly annoyed sigh on mine.

All this to emphasize my main point, which is just to focus on the relationship and respect her as an adult and individual, capable of thinking for herself. Be as willing to listen, understand, and change your mind as much as you would like her to be. Don't be afraid to have the hard, honest, conversations. When conversations don't end well, have another one and leave it in a better spot. Negotiate a new relationship, and if she returns, that's great, and if not, then you've still got a rich and rewarding relationship with your daughter and you're able to share your lives with each other in healthy and mutually-beneficial ways.

Sorry about the length-- I've had this on the brain lately.
_Aristotle Smith
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Re: A Talk Last Night With My Daughter

Post by _Aristotle Smith »

consiglieri wrote:So, now to the point. Any advice?


Be yourself. Is there really anything else you can do?
_why me
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Re: A Talk Last Night With My Daughter

Post by _why me »

consiglieri wrote:
I think it may be saying that the prophet is not the kind of prophet many Mormons presume him to be.

It boils down to a decision as to whether the prophet is racist or God.

Which would you prefer?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri


It seems that god is a racist when he proclaimed the jews the chosen race. That made him a racist and the palestinians are still feeling this racism to this day.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world.
Joseph Smith


We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…”
Joseph Smith
_why me
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Re: A Talk Last Night With My Daughter

Post by _why me »

consiglieri wrote:
And, more to the point of this thread, if Mormon women prophesied, received revelation, and healed by the laying on of hands at the inception of the LDS Church, why do they not today?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri


It would seem that such experiences were necessary for the church. In its early days, many were speaking in tongues. In fact, it was getting so out of hand that Joseph Smith needed to reign in the zealots during the meetings. He began to sense that something was going wrong and the church would not survive.

You would need to ask god for an answer to your question. The church works and it is successful. I don't see women as second class members at all. And I would guess that most don't.

Your wife should open her mouth and in a polite way ask the women members what they think. It would be interesting to hear the answers.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world.
Joseph Smith


We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…”
Joseph Smith
_why me
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Re: A Talk Last Night With My Daughter

Post by _why me »

consiglieri wrote:
why me wrote: The answer to your questions is no. The church could not function without men or without women. They both compliment the other.


Now you're just being obtuse. Maybe you were at Mass when Bruce R. McConkie said (more than once) that where the priesthood is, you will find the church; and where the priesthood is not, the church is not. (If he had used a Yoda voice, it would have been funnier.)


--Consiglieri


And I would agree with him but this does not mean that women are not necessary. But what it does mean is that the LDS church needs the priesthood. There are two churches with the priesthood: the LDS and the catholic church. Both churches need women and the priesthood. Men and women compliment one another in the church.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world.
Joseph Smith


We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…”
Joseph Smith
_why me
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Joined: Fri Feb 02, 2007 8:19 pm

Re: A Talk Last Night With My Daughter

Post by _why me »

consiglieri wrote:
Using your argument that the LDS prophet has ready access to the mind of God, why is it that blacks could not hold the priesthood in the Mormon Church from Brigham Young to Spencer Kimball?

If God uses his prophet to reveal his will, why is it LDS women are treated as second class citizens?

If Heavenly Mother were giving daily revelation to the prophet, do you think the message would be the same? Do you think a prophetess would be leading the Church?

Do you think Heavenly Mother holds the priesthood?

I have lots of questions, but these should suffice for the present.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri


Ask your stake president. Maybe he can help you. You should listen to the mormonstories podcast about blacks and the priesthood. Maybe that will help you.

If I go back in time to when you were posting bullseyes over on MAD none of this seemed to bother you. Now... well, times have changed ever since you were released from your cherished sunday school teacher calling. And that is ashame.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world.
Joseph Smith


We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…”
Joseph Smith
_Darth J
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Re: A Talk Last Night With My Daughter

Post by _Darth J »

why me wrote:
consiglieri wrote:
I think it may be saying that the prophet is not the kind of prophet many Mormons presume him to be.

It boils down to a decision as to whether the prophet is racist or God.

Which would you prefer?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri


It seems that god is a racist when he proclaimed the jews the chosen race. That made him a racist and the palestinians are still feeling this racism to this day.


One of my favorite defenses of the Church is, "Oh, yeah? Well the Bible is wrong, too!"
_why me
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Re: A Talk Last Night With My Daughter

Post by _why me »

Lizard Jew wrote:consigliari,

it is an odd thought to think that god would have let the blacks get the priestood taken from them and never tell the prophet he was wrong.

i find that a little hard to believe.

this is basically saying that the prophet is'New Testament the prophet!


Listen to the Mormon stories podcast about it all:

http://mormonstories.org/?p=83

A black man who has been a member for many years talks about it all with what this board would consider a second class member woman who just happens to be extremely educated.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world.
Joseph Smith


We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…”
Joseph Smith
_why me
_Emeritus
Posts: 9589
Joined: Fri Feb 02, 2007 8:19 pm

Re: A Talk Last Night With My Daughter

Post by _why me »

Darth J wrote:
why me wrote:
It seems that god is a racist when he proclaimed the jews the chosen race. That made him a racist and the palestinians are still feeling this racism to this day.


One of my favorite defenses of the Church is, "Oh, yeah? Well the Bible is wrong, too!"


No, but since god chose the jews are the chosen people, he became a racist. And the palestinians are suffering their fate at the hands of the chosen people. Many EVs are in favor of settlements etc because they consider that land on the west bank jewish land based on the Bible. So, it seems that god is a racist. In fact, his racism is throughout the old testament. And Christ in the Bible only visited the jews.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world.
Joseph Smith


We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…”
Joseph Smith
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