It's Official - Stand and Shout the Gays are Out (link)

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
Post Reply
_Drifting
_Emeritus
Posts: 7306
Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2011 10:52 am

Re: It's Official - Stand and Shout the Gays are Out (link)

Post by _Drifting »

subgenius wrote:
Runtu wrote:Why is a loving relationship suddenly invalid if it involves sexual activity?

Because it perverts that relationship.
An adult and a child can be in a loving relationship, add sexual activity and that loving relationship is perverted.
To propose that sexual activity has no influence on a relationship is either disingenuous on your part or a rather ill-informed proposition that i challenge you to support.


So how did sexuality pervert the relationships Joseph Smith had with the children he married?
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.”
Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric

"One, two, three...let's go shopping!"
Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator
_Runtu
_Emeritus
Posts: 16721
Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2006 5:06 am

Re: It's Official - Stand and Shout the Gays are Out (link)

Post by _Runtu »

subgenius wrote:1. they may not have had intercourse, but they had a sexual relationship. Your reasoning is like the girl who maintains her virginity but still gives blowjobs.


Oral sex (your term is kind of crude) involves sexual contact, meaning that genitals are involved. Hugging, cuddling, holding hands, and kissing do not involve sexual contact. Most parents hug, cuddle, hold hands with, and kiss their children, but you would not say they have a sexual relationship with their kids, would you?

LGBT affects society and individuals with perversion (goes against the biological imperative)


Sex is solely for the "biological imperative"? That suggests that my wife and I should have stopped having sex after we conceived our sixth and final child. I'm glad my wife doesn't share your view of sexuality.

LGBT leads away morally (corrupts the virtue of family that is known as best and supported by society at large)


By whose definition and standards? What happens if society at large becomes accepting and supportive of same-sex relationships (as is happening)? What you're saying is that "society thinks it's bad, so it's bad."

LGBT turns away from the right course (the moral argument)


This is an empty platitude.

LGBT leads into mental error or false judgment (psychological retardation, as Freud proposed)


Another empty platitude.

LGBT turns to an improper use; misapplies (obvious)


And yet another one.

Your argument boils down to this: Homosexuality is bad because it is bad.
Runtu's Rincón

If you just talk, I find that your mouth comes out with stuff. -- Karl Pilkington
_Runtu
_Emeritus
Posts: 16721
Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2006 5:06 am

Re: It's Official - Stand and Shout the Gays are Out (link)

Post by _Runtu »

subgenius wrote:your following anecdote has little influence on this issue (revision by me in bold below)
A colleague of mine went to a very conservative Christian college (Abilene Christian University in Texas), where he was heavily involved in his Evangelical religion, right-wing politics, and anti-gay groups and message boards. He dated and had a girlfriend who was as rabidly right-wing and anti-gay as he was.

But he was miserable because, as he knew, he was a rapist. His attempt to suppress and deny that part of him turned him into a hateful person who spread contention and hate wherever he went.

Eventually, a near-fatal accident caused him to re-evaluate his life. He began to rape, and he has been happy for the last ten years.

The pursuit of happiness argument is not one that applies to all human action.


This is not only incredibly foolish, but rather disgusting. Logically speaking, a nonconsensual rape is not analogous to a consensual sexual relationship. But it does make you look like a bigot who hates gays.


because it is true and supported by facts. (as posted prior)


You haven't posted any facts prior or otherwise. So far, it's all been argument by assertion. I've already posted factual information about how the condemnation of people like you contributes to the social and sexual dysfunction of gay men.

I don't think bashing of any sort is "healthy", either for the individual or society - and i have not proposed such. However, "tolerate everything" is not a viable or reasonable option.


Had I argued for "tolerate everything," you might have a point. If all you have is unsupported assertions and strawmen, you don't have much of anything.
Runtu's Rincón

If you just talk, I find that your mouth comes out with stuff. -- Karl Pilkington
_subgenius
_Emeritus
Posts: 13326
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2011 12:50 pm

Re: It's Official - Stand and Shout the Gays are Out (link)

Post by _subgenius »

Runtu wrote:You haven't posted any facts prior or otherwise.

So, to clarify, before it gets handed to you on a plate.
1. You consider my posting about the best environment for a child to be not factual?
2. You consider LGBT as a genetic defect to be not factual?
3. You consider Freud's view of LGBT to be not factual?
4. You consider contemporary society's value of LGBT to be not factual?
5. You consider LGBT relationships being of no virtue to be not factual?
Seek freedom and become captive of your desires...seek discipline and find your liberty
I can tell if a person is judgmental just by looking at them
what is chaos to the fly is normal to the spider - morticia addams
If you're not upsetting idiots, you might be an idiot. - Ted Nugent
_Runtu
_Emeritus
Posts: 16721
Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2006 5:06 am

Re: It's Official - Stand and Shout the Gays are Out (link)

Post by _Runtu »

subgenius wrote:So, to clarify, before it gets handed to you on a plate.
1. You consider my posting about the best environment for a child to be not factual?


Other people believe that Mormonism does not provide a good environment for children. Is their opinion factual?

2. You consider LGBT as a genetic defect to be not factual?


Some people think that autism is caused by vaccines. Is their opinion fact?

3. You consider Freud's view of LGBT to be not factual?


Freud believed that shell-shock in WWI soldiers was caused by underlying sexual issues. Was his view factual?

4. You consider contemporary society's value of LGBT to be not factual?


What "society" values has to do with values, not facts. "Texas A&M is a university" is a fact." "A&M sucks! Hook 'em horns!" is an opinion.

5. You consider LGBT relationships being of no virtue to be not factual?


Christopher Hitchens thought Mormonism was of no virtue. Was that factual?

Again, you seem to believe that "because I said so" is a compelling argument based on facts. Give me something other than empty assertions, and we might get somewhere.
Runtu's Rincón

If you just talk, I find that your mouth comes out with stuff. -- Karl Pilkington
_Drifting
_Emeritus
Posts: 7306
Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2011 10:52 am

Re: It's Official - Stand and Shout the Gays are Out (link)

Post by _Drifting »

subgenius wrote:2. You consider LGBT as a genetic defect to be not factual?


No, it can't be because...

"Prophets anciently and today condemn masturbation. It induces feelings of guilt and shame. It is detrimental to spirituality. It indicates slavery to the flesh, not that mastery of it and the growth toward godhood which is the object of our mortal life. Our modern prophet has indicated that no young man should be called on a mission who is not free from this practice. What is more, it too often leads to grievous sin, even to that sin against nature, homosexuality. For, done in private, it evolves often into mutual masturbation-practiced with another person of the same sex and thence into total homosexuality...."
- Prophet Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness, Pages 77-79, 81-82

When the Prophet speaks, subgenius is undone...
Last edited by Guest on Fri Jan 13, 2012 2:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.”
Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric

"One, two, three...let's go shopping!"
Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator
_The Mighty Builder
_Emeritus
Posts: 1593
Joined: Thu Jun 10, 2010 9:48 pm

Re: It's Official - Stand and Shout the Gays are Out (link)

Post by _The Mighty Builder »

WOW!, I was just trying to point out that all those Closet Gays attending BYU, BYU-Idaho, BYU-Hawaii and other Mormon owned schools now have something to be proud of and should as the BYU fight song suggests Rise (Stand) and Shout because they are now Out.
_subgenius
_Emeritus
Posts: 13326
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2011 12:50 pm

Re: It's Official - Stand and Shout the Gays are Out (link)

Post by _subgenius »

Runtu wrote:...Again, you seem to believe that "because I said so" is a compelling argument based on facts. Give me something other than empty assertions, and we might get somewhere.

i will keep it simple, since that may be the only way you can handle it....just curious though, why you could not simply answer the rather direct questions i posted...hmmm...

nevertheless, we see once again how you and your ilk have the hardest time staying on the actual topic....is there a shiny object in the room that keeps you distracted? I thought we were talking about LGBT, but you start talking about vaccines, autism, Texas A&M, WWII, etc...what is so difficult about staying on the subject?

So, here we go, served up hot like i promised.

fact   [fakt]
noun
1.something that actually exists; reality; truth
2.something known to exist or to have happened:
3.a truth known by actual experience or observation; something known to be true:
4.something said to be true or supposed to have happened

for example, i posted the question to you:
1. You consider my posting about the best environment for a child to be not factual?
which you attempted (feebly) to characterize my question as an inference of opinion, which obviously concludes your answer to be yes, you do not consider that posting to be factual. (which, of course, you had already claimed, but i just wanted to give you a chance)

http://www.scu.edu/ethics/publications/ ... stody.html
http://www.acf.hhs.gov/programs/opre/ab ... an2010.pdf (pages 5-25)
http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/ (article 16)
http://www.clasp.org/admin/site/publica ... s/0086.pdf

Here is your plate, let me know when you are ready for another serving:

Image

*smack*
Seek freedom and become captive of your desires...seek discipline and find your liberty
I can tell if a person is judgmental just by looking at them
what is chaos to the fly is normal to the spider - morticia addams
If you're not upsetting idiots, you might be an idiot. - Ted Nugent
_Drifting
_Emeritus
Posts: 7306
Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2011 10:52 am

Re: It's Official - Stand and Shout the Gays are Out (link)

Post by _Drifting »

subgenius wrote:i will keep it simple, since that may be the only way you can handle it....just curious though, why you could not simply answer the rather direct questions i posted...hmmm...



From a different thread:
subgenius,

Do you believe that Eve was a real person and that she was literally created by God taking one of Adams literal ribs and using that to literally create her?


Pot...meet kettle...

The phrase "The pot calling the kettle black" is an idiom used to accuse a person guilty of the very thing of which they accuse another.

1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
4. Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.”
Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric

"One, two, three...let's go shopping!"
Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator
_Runtu
_Emeritus
Posts: 16721
Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2006 5:06 am

Re: It's Official - Stand and Shout the Gays are Out (link)

Post by _Runtu »

subgenius wrote:i will keep it simple, since that may be the only way you can handle it....just curious though, why you could not simply answer the rather direct questions i posted...hmmm...


I could have answered them, but I figured it would be more effective to ask analogous silly questions.

nevertheless, we see once again how you and your ilk have the hardest time staying on the actual topic....is there a shiny object in the room that keeps you distracted? I thought we were talking about LGBT, but you start talking about vaccines, autism, Texas A&M, WWII, etc...what is so difficult about staying on the subject?


I may be part of an ilk, but at least I understand analogies.

So, here we go, served up hot like i promised.

fact   [fakt]
noun
1.something that actually exists; reality; truth
2.something known to exist or to have happened:
3.a truth known by actual experience or observation; something known to be true:
4.something said to be true or supposed to have happened


So, you're going with #4, it seems. Of course, that definition has a specific usage: "in fact." In other words, it's an assertion presented as actual. I guess you want to play word games.

for example, i posted the question to you:
1. You consider my posting about the best environment for a child to be not factual?
which you attempted (feebly) to characterize my question as an inference of opinion, which obviously concludes your answer to be yes, you do not consider that posting to be factual. (which, of course, you had already claimed, but i just wanted to give you a chance)


It is an opinion, as you well know.

http://www.scu.edu/ethics/publications/iie/v11n1/custody.html


This article is about child custody and placement. Please explain how it's relevant.

http://www.acf.hhs.gov/programs/opre/abuse_neglect/natl_incid/nis4_report_congress_full_pdf_jan2010.pdf (pages 5-25)


Broken link.

http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/ (article 16)


So, people have the right to marry. Relevance?

http://www.clasp.org/admin/site/publications_states/files/0086.pdf


You must have missed this part:

Same-sex couple families
The 2000 Census revealed that out of 5.5 million cohabiting couples, about 11 percent were same-sex couples—with slightly more male couples than female. One-third of female same-sex households and 22 percent of male households, or about 163,000 same-sex households in total, lived with children under 18 years old. (This compares with about 25 million married-couple households with children under 18.)
Although the research on these families has limitations, the findings are consistent: children raised by same-sex parents are no more likely to exhibit poor outcomes than children raised by divorced heterosexual parents.

Since many children raised by gay or lesbian parents have undergone the divorce of their parents, researchers have considered the most appropriate comparison group to be children of heterosexual divorced parents. Children of gay or lesbian parents do not look different from their counterparts raised in heterosexual divorced families regarding school performance, behavior problems, emotional problems, early pregnancy, or difficulties finding employment.

However, as previously indicated, children of divorce are at higher risk for many of these problems than children of married parents.


In other words, marriage matters in a host of familial variables. That would seem to support same-sex marriage as improving the lives of children. And of course, there is thus far no data on children who are raised in same-sex relationships where divorce is not involved.

Here is your plate, let me know when you are ready for another serving:

*smack*


There's nothing quite as entertaining as unwarranted hubris.
Runtu's Rincón

If you just talk, I find that your mouth comes out with stuff. -- Karl Pilkington
Post Reply