Problems in FARMS/FAIR: A Cassius CFP

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_Analytics
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Re: Problems in FARMS/FAIR: A Cassius CFP

Post by _Analytics »

One of my favorites is Stephen E. Robinson's review of Vogel's The Word of God: Essays on Mormon Scripture (I like it because it is so short).

FARMS Review: Volume - 3, Issue - 1, Pages: 312-18
A review of "The Word of God: Essays on Mormon Scripture" by Dan Vogel

Provo, Utah: Maxwell Institute, 1991

http://maxwellinstitute.BYU.edu/publica ... um=1&id=74

He starts by saying,
Korihor's back, and this time he's got a printing press.


After a few paragraphs of rants, attacks, and isolated points that don't give any indication of what this really good book is about, he concludes with,

I suppose by now it is clear that I did not like this book. I did not like it primarily because it is dishonest. It is dishonest to pass off the religion of the scholars as the Church of Jesus Christ. It is dishonest to pass off Protestantism in Mormon dress as the religion restored through Joseph Smith. It is dishonest to pass off a rejection and a denial of that religion as merely a "reinterpretation." It is dishonest to pass off ex-Latter-day Saints, non-Latter-day Saints, Reorganized Latter-day Saints, disaffected Latter-day Saints, and hard-core anti-Latter-day Saints as "Mormon" essayists. Give me a Walter Martin anytime, a good stout wolf with his own fur on, instead of those more timid or sly parading around in their ridiculous fleeces with their teeth and tails hanging out. Give me "Ex-Mormons for Jesus" or the Moody Bible Tract Society, who are at least honest about their anti-Mormon agenda, instead of Signature Books camouflaged as a "Latter-day Saint" press. I prefer my anti-Mormons straight up.
It’s relatively easy to agree that only Homo sapiens can speak about things that don’t really exist, and believe six impossible things before breakfast. You could never convince a monkey to give you a banana by promising him limitless bananas after death in monkey heaven.

-Yuval Noah Harari
_Kishkumen
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Re: Problems in FARMS/FAIR: A Cassius CFP

Post by _Kishkumen »

Analytics wrote:After a few paragraphs of rants, attacks, and isolated points that don't give any indication of what this really good book is about, he concludes with,

I suppose by now it is clear that I did not like this book. I did not like it primarily because it is dishonest. It is dishonest to pass off the religion of the scholars as the Church of Jesus Christ. It is dishonest to pass off Protestantism in Mormon dress as the religion restored through Joseph Smith. It is dishonest to pass off a rejection and a denial of that religion as merely a "reinterpretation." It is dishonest to pass off ex-Latter-day Saints, non-Latter-day Saints, Reorganized Latter-day Saints, disaffected Latter-day Saints, and hard-core anti-Latter-day Saints as "Mormon" essayists. Give me a Walter Martin anytime, a good stout wolf with his own fur on, instead of those more timid or sly parading around in their ridiculous fleeces with their teeth and tails hanging out. Give me "Ex-Mormons for Jesus" or the Moody Bible Tract Society, who are at least honest about their anti-Mormon agenda, instead of Signature Books camouflaged as a "Latter-day Saint" press. I prefer my anti-Mormons straight up.


I guess some folks can't distinguish between writing about Mormonism and anti-Mormonism. Not surprising really.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_Kevin Graham
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Re: Problems in FARMS/FAIR: A Cassius CFP

Post by _Kevin Graham »

Let's not forget the blistering critique by Dan Vogel after FARMS took Andrew Hedges off of his leash:

http://signaturebooks.com/2011/09/seein ... -w-hedges/
_Hasa Diga Eebowai
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Re: Problems in FARMS/FAIR: A Cassius CFP

Post by _Hasa Diga Eebowai »

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Last edited by Guest on Mon Jul 14, 2014 2:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
_Kishkumen
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Re: Problems in FARMS/FAIR: A Cassius CFP

Post by _Kishkumen »

Hasa Diga Eebowai wrote:Now in hindsight since getting an education and reading academic articles the difference is stark. I haven't gone back to FARMS for years, but reading the the mopologetic rants when compared to the books they are reviewing and then the counter responses shows how stark the difference is. They have encouraged their own insular culture of attacking that fails to address the criticism and is not appropriate for an academic journal.


Make no mistake, the apologists who write slam articles that fail to engage the actual arguments of the work they "review" are banking on two things: 1) the bias of their reader against any difficult information or criticism; 2) the reader's inability to assess critically the review itself. In cases such as these, the only thing the piece can possibly serve as is a stopgap measure or diversion. Most anyone who comes to such reviews with any critical reading skills will see them for what they are and be sorely disappointed. It is a paltry gain for the harm that it does. I say, unless one has the knowledge and skill to give a book an adequate and fair review, one ought to decline the opportunity to do so. Certainly one should not be invited to do so by a responsible editor, and by all means the editor should exercise his or her responsibility by not publishing inadequate reviews.

On MDD, one of the posters seems to get the basic idea, but he applies it to John Dehlin's interviews:

Robert F. Smith wrote:I'd feel a whole lot more comfortable about it if Dehlin bothered to prepare himself for his interviews. It is obvious that he hasn't done his homework, hasn't read widely enough to get a feel for the true nature of the issues. I suppose that is to be expected, coming as he does from a family (as he himself said) which was anti-science and very conservative (the way fundamentalist christians are typically rigid and conservative).

Perhaps his interviewing will by itself help him learn something about the issues, but I doubt it. He is so poorly informed at this point that he has little to judge his interviewees by, and little context in which to place their responses. He is more likely to be whipsawed by every little piece of propaganda, regardless of the source. Aside from all that, he seems like a nice guy.


Robert F. Smith is right. The value of an interview depends in part on the level of preparation that goes into it. Of course, when one listens to John Dehlin, no one is kidding themselves into thinking that John is a professional journalist. Most people come to understand that he is a busy student, provider, and father, with a lot of irons in the fire. And, it is not like he brings nothing to the table. Most of all, as Smith concedes, he "seems like a nice guy."

The last phrase is a common refrain over there, which strikes me, in the way it is phrased and the context in which it is phrased, to be a backhanded compliment. "Oh, he may be an apostate ignoramus and wolf in sheep's clothing," they say, "but he seems like a nice guy." Ahem. Yes.

The thing that makes what John is doing useful and interesting, in my view, is that he provides casual exposure to people and subjects that many have not encountered before. His stated purpose was for people to tell their stories, hence "Mormon Stories." It was never to provide scholarly coverage of the minutiae of LDS history and doctrine. So, yes, Mr. Smith, duly noted. But there is none of the false advertizing here that a number of apologists have insidiously implied. John is open about who he is. You guys just don't like it and think it has no place in the LDS world.

How worse that we have these "reviews" that pass as scholarship, but are not uncommonly mean spirited accusations that an LDS writer is a wolf in sheep's clothing, tool of the Devil, and apostate. Frankly, it is hard not to reach the conclusion that such reviews are notes for the Committee for Strengthening the Membership that are simply dressed up in slightly more readable (if no less disturbing) prose suitable for feeding an Inquisition. If there is any false advertizing, I would submit that it is this intellectual subterfuge that seeks, on the claimed authority of no one higher than an editor who works for BYU, to marginalize LDS authors and other personalities where church discipline has yet to reach.

And, it seems that what counts for the purpose, is not that the review be rigorous and accurate, but mostly that it be calculated to make the person who wrote the work look either inept or like a threat to the Body of Christ. The former task is acceptable, inasmuch as it is a responsible scholar's job to provide in his review a fair scholarly assessment, and inasmuch as that person is qualified to make such a judgment and does so responsibly. The latter is nothing less than an arrogation of inappropriate authority and the misuse of the scholarly pose as a weapon, illegitimately wielded in lieu of the proper exercise of priesthood authority.

So who, then, is the wolf in sheep's clothing? The doubting member who goes online or makes a podcast to discuss his doubts openly, or the person who preempts priesthood authority by maligning fellow members with the goal of ostracizing them where church discipline has yet to act? Personally, I think that the latter is far more dangerous. And we have seen how time and again the apologetic effort at BYU has been used to conduct this kind of warfare where the church has yet to act officially, using the institutional credibility of BYU to lend an air of official authority to this speaking evil of brothers and sisters in Christ.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_Infymus
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Re: Problems in FARMS/FAIR: A Cassius CFP

Post by _Infymus »

Kishkumen wrote:Make no mistake, the apologists who write slam articles that fail to engage the actual arguments of the work they "review" are banking on two things: 1) the bias of their reader against any difficult information or criticism; 2) the reader's inability to assess critically the review itself.


I wonder if there is not another piece to this. Not every Mormon looking for more information about their religion is necessarily more highly educated. I don't mean to state levels of intelligence but more levels of education. Apologist articles aren't written for the average Mormon sitting at the computer looking for more information about the Book of Abraham. For many, these articles are a very hard read. I like to say that DCP uses $10 dollar words - and he does. It makes for very convoluted reading that takes effort to get through - while material written for general Mormon membership is written at a high school level.

Perhaps this is why in many cases many simply acknowledge that an answer exists - without actually reading the material.
_Gadianton
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Re: Problems in FARMS/FAIR: A Cassius CFP

Post by _Gadianton »

Perhaps this is why in many cases many simply acknowledge that an answer exists - without actually reading the material.


This is why Hugh Nibley is over-billed as an untouchable super-genius. It's enough for the Saints to see his books in print. knowing that he might have been the smartest person alive, there is no reason to investigate further, if he's convinced, they're convinced.
_Kishkumen
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Re: Problems in FARMS/FAIR: A Cassius CFP

Post by _Kishkumen »

Gadianton wrote:This is why Hugh Nibley is over-billed as an untouchable super-genius. It's enough for the Saints to see his books in print. knowing that he might have been the smartest person alive, there is no reason to investigate further, if he's convinced, they're convinced.


There's a reason why parents used to name their sons "Doctor."
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_Doctor Scratch
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Re: Problems in FARMS/FAIR: A Cassius CFP

Post by _Doctor Scratch »

I noticed that Calmoriah seems to be asking me something:

Calmoriah wrote:
DCP wrote:Specific examples are the life blood of such a course, and of such wonderful books as David Hackett Fisher's classic Historians Fallacies. The Stalker, it seems, would like to rule all such things illegitimate and morally offensive, but no real historian is likely to follow him down that path. In fact, I doubt that he himself really believes it.

Since he himself is using examples (though I requested it, he seems to have received the suggestion as a good idea) to demonstrate his belief that FARMS/MI is _______ (fill in the blank) or at least certain aspects of FARMS/MI are "bad" in his view (I don't know if he's used the word "bad", but if something is seen as "problematic" surely it is viewed as at least partially wrong somehow), it would seem he agrees with you at least to some extent.


I would, Cal, but Dr. Peterson isn't really restating my point very well. There is a difference between showing students the distinction between good and bad history, versus bragging about doing it, and using the occasion to try and score a rather nasty rhetorical point, in print. I have no idea what Hamblin was actually doing in his classroom with his students; I only know what he said in his article, and it wasn't very nice at all. Further, I have to wonder if his goal really was trying to teach his students something about history, or whether he trying to deliberately bias them against one of his enemies.

Perhaps Mercy or xander can convey to us if he disagrees with my interpretation and does in fact view all of FARMS/MI as good in what it does and how it operates.


I'm not following you here--this doesn't make much sense at all.
"[I]f, while hoping that everybody else will be honest and so forth, I can personally prosper through unethical and immoral acts without being detected and without risk, why should I not?." --Daniel Peterson, 6/4/14
_Doctor Scratch
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Re: Problems in FARMS/FAIR: A Cassius CFP

Post by _Doctor Scratch »

A really good critique of the many problems in DCP's "Reflections on Secular Anti-Mormonism" is by Bob McCue:

http://www.exmormon.org/Mormon/mormon438.htm

DCP claimed that it was totally misguided and 'wrong'.... without ever having read it.
"[I]f, while hoping that everybody else will be honest and so forth, I can personally prosper through unethical and immoral acts without being detected and without risk, why should I not?." --Daniel Peterson, 6/4/14
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