Kinderhook vs the Papyri

[Guest]

That depends on which facsimiles we are talking about. When Joseph Smith speculates about the Egyptian ones, clearly he's speculating and wrong. When he's speaking about the ones made by Abraham, no - he was inspired by God.

Joseph's speculations are the explanations we see in the Book of Abraham about each part of the facsimiles. They are tailor made for them as well. You say the facsimiles are Egyptian, but that Abraham made his own facsimiles. Does this mean that for each explanation Joseph gives that Abraham's facsimiles will have the same iconography that the Egyptians use for their funerary rituals.

Huh? What on Earth are you talking about? Joseph Smith's speculation about the Egyptian Facsimiles is wrong - stupid - non-sense. His misunderstanding that they were the original depictions made by Abraham is at the root of the problem of his confusion. The fact he didn't know Egyptian Hieroglyphics nor what the Egyptian depictions meant is confirmation of that fact.

[_Themis]

Huh? What on Earth are you talking about? Joseph Smith's speculation about the Egyptian Facsimiles is wrong - stupid - non-sense. His misunderstanding that there were original depictions made by Abraham is at the root of the problem of his confusion. The fact he didn't know Egyptian Hieroglyphics nor what the Egyptian depictions meant is confirmation of that fact.

So you are saying Abraham did create his own depictions but that the iconography on them is very different and unrelated to the ones on the Egyptian papyri?

[_Tobin]

Huh? What on Earth are you talking about? Joseph Smith's speculation about the Egyptian Facsimiles is wrong - stupid - non-sense. His misunderstanding that there were original depictions made by Abraham is at the root of the problem of his confusion. The fact he didn't know Egyptian Hieroglyphics nor what the Egyptian depictions meant is confirmation of that fact.

So you are saying Abraham did create his own depictions but that the iconography on them is very different and unrelated to the ones on the Egyptian papyri?

Abraham wrote his own account and made his own depictions. They no longer exists. Joseph Smith assumed wrongly the Egyptian papyri were 1) written by the hand of Abraham 2) contained an account by Abraham 3) contained an account by Joseph and 4) the depiction were the ones made by Abraham. As you know and I know, that isn't so. The papyri are far too young to have been written by Abraham and are purely Egyptian in origin. There is simply no reason to bring it up again and again when those are the facts. The papyri are Egyptian. Case closed.

[_Shulem]

So you are saying Abraham did create his own depictions but that the iconography on them is very different and unrelated to the ones on the Egyptian papyri?

And around and around you go. Poor, poor Tobin.

Let me tell Tobin what he needs to do.

Slam down a shot of Jack Daniels whiskey and then slam down another one. Then pour yourself a tall glass of wine and sip it quickly. When you are done, pour yourself a gin and tonic with a sliced lemon and slowly sip it while you buzz. Then say to yourself, "Thank you Joe Smith for the Book of Abraham".

Paul O

[_Tobin]

...

Paul. I know what your problem is, you drink whiskey. Now, if you had recommended a fine Islay Scotch, I might have been impressed.

[_Shulem]

...

Paul. I know what your problem is, you drink whiskey. Now, if you had recommended a fine Islay Scotch, I might have been impressed.

I think we understand each other, Tobin.



Paul O

[_Themis]

Abraham wrote his own account and made his own depictions. They no longer exists. Joseph Smith assumed wrongly the Egyptian papyri were 1) written by the hand of Abraham 2) contained an account by Abraham 3) contained an account by Joseph and 4) the depiction were the ones made by Abraham. As you know and I know, that isn't so. The papyri are far too young to have been written by Abraham and are purely Egyptian in origin. There is simply no reason to bring it up again and again when those are the facts. The papyri are Egyptian. Case closed.

So you are saying the explanations are inspired but the facsimiles are not and should be removed from the Book of Abraham but leave the explanations?

[_Tobin]

Abraham wrote his own account and made his own depictions. They no longer exists. Joseph Smith assumed wrongly the Egyptian papyri were 1) written by the hand of Abraham 2) contained an account by Abraham 3) contained an account by Joseph and 4) the depiction were the ones made by Abraham. As you know and I know, that isn't so. The papyri are far too young to have been written by Abraham and are purely Egyptian in origin. There is simply no reason to bring it up again and again when those are the facts. The papyri are Egyptian. Case closed.

So you are saying the explanations are inspired but the facsimiles are not and should be removed from the Book of Abraham but leave the explanations?

If we had the original text and depictions, that would be fine. But as things stand, they are worthless and wrong. If Joseph Smith had realized what needed to be done and proceeded to restore the original writings of Abraham as he wrote them and the depictions, then that would have been marvelous and truely an amazing feat. Since he did not, we are left with nothing useful and a serious question can be raised about if any of the things he did was inspired at all.

[_Themis]

If we had the original text and depictions, that would be fine. But as things stand, they are worthless and wrong. If Joseph Smith had realized what needed to be done and proceeded to restore the original writings of Abraham as he wrote them and the depictions, then that would have been marvelous and truly an amazing feat. Since he did not, we are left with nothing useful and a serious question can be raised about if any of the things he did was inspired at all.

So then you think the facsimiles should be removed since they have nothing to do with Abraham's record, but the explanations below them should remain. You say if Joseph had realized, but wouldn't God who is telling him things very specifically let him know and also reveal Abraham's depictions so that the explanations could be attached to them as they are being revealed?

[_thews]

Abraham wrote his own account and made his own depictions. They no longer exists.

Yes they do... the LDS church has them and hides them along with the EAG.

Joseph Smith assumed wrongly the Egyptian papyri were 1) written by the hand of Abraham 2) contained an account by Abraham 3) contained an account by Joseph and 4) the depiction were the ones made by Abraham. As you know and I know, that isn't so. The papyri are far too young to have been written by Abraham and are purely Egyptian in origin. There is simply no reason to bring it up again and again when those are the facts. The papyri are Egyptian. Case closed.

You continue to admit this and ignore that Joseph Smith said he was "translating" them. How do you rationalize Joseph Smith's claim he "translated" the papyri that were in his possession?