Flip Side of the Coin

[_Themis]

Even if there is a good God self deception is still just as much a reality.

If the one asking God a foundational question is really willing to base the whole rest of that one's life on whatever answer God might provide, then why is self deception as high a possibility as you make it out to be? Do you think God wants that one to stay in the dark? If not, why can't that one count on God answering that one's question?

LOL I see the qualifiers coming out. This is what you said

On the other hand, if there is the type of God I just described, then why in the world wouldn't such a God step in, provide the one with God's answer, and save that one from self-deception?

I think it's obvious God is not stopping people from self deception. People are asking God questions all the time yet getting all kinds of different answers. How many say they never got an answer, or that they did but know see it as their own body providing what they thought or were taught to believe was the HG communicating with them. YOU have already admitted here as well you are not sure at all but choose to believe. I am sure the same could be said of JW, Scientology, Hinduism, Wicca, etc. Some fo them are much more sure then you are, so why is it you are not the one deceiving yourself given that you admit you don't know and admit you have chosen to believe regardless of any evidence.

Themis, why do you think it is so obvious that "this" is "not happening"?

See above.

I am sure; I'm completely convinced that there is a good God in control of the universe, and that He does reveal His will to those people who ask Him such questions.

Why do I recall you saying otherwise, other then you have convinced yourself through choice. If I am wrong then how do you consider your knowledge to be accurate? Being sure is in most cases just based on feeling sure. All I see is a guy who admits to making a choice to believe and be convinced it is true. This seems a classic example of self deception.

Oh wait here it is

To be honest I have had some times when I've doubted God's existence (and still do to some degree), but I've never let a day end without letting God know that I've committed to believe in Him no matter what happens in the world, and there's nothing that can shake me from that commitment.

[_Madison54]

I don't believe in the omniscience of God; why should I believe in the omniscience of God's apostles? They make it their business to find out what God has to tell them about the running of the LDS Church; what God tells them they act on; what God doesn'ttell them of necessity is unclear to them. That does not mean they are not in a position to tell us what we need to know. God has told them everything that we need to know in our current stage of life.

Yes, I do "hang on their every" word; what alternative is there for someone committed to doing the will of God?

The problem here is that none of them actually speak to God (even by their own admission). We even have past prophets who admit they had never spoken to or seen God and had never received a revelation.

I understand what you are stating because I used to try to hold on like you are.....but these men do not speak to God (other than in prayers just like you and I can).

[_Cylon]

I guess I just don't find the alternative something I can deal with. The alternative is that there is no God, or that there is a God but S/He isn't good, or at least doesn't care enough about us knowing that God's will that we can be sure S/He wants us to make contact. And as far as I can tell those last two possibilities are virtually equivalent to there being no deity at all, since as far as we can tell there probably would be no difference between an amoral deity or a non-caring deity and no deity at all.

I'll grant you the functional equivalence of those last things. And I respect you for admitting that the alternative to God is something you just can't deal with. My wife is the same way. So, I'm certainly willing to live and let live in that regard. On the other hand, I'm sure you can appreciate that saying "I can't cope with the idea of no God" is not a very persuasive argument to someone who can cope with the idea. I get ticked off when people use reasons like "I can't handle being alone in the universe, therefore God must exist, therefore you have to believe in God, too." From what you've said here, though, you haven't made that argument that I can tell, so I don't really have any quarrel with you on that count.

But the simple fact is that the work of God must go on, whether there actually is a deity to carry it out or not. Perhaps I should modify that and say that the work of the good God must go on. If there is no good God, then the work of God falls squarely on the shoulders of you, Cylon, me, and anyone else who really thinks s/he has a conscience. If God isn't going to preserve some good things into the eternities, then you, Cylon need to take upon yourself the job of preserving some good things into the eternities. Are you up to that task?

I know I'm not. But I recognize it has to be carried out; I recognize that my conscience requires it to be carried out.

I'll ask you again, Cylon, are you up to that task?

Well, given the second law of thermodynamics, no, I don't think I or any other mortal is up to the task of building something that lasts eternally. But I also think it's a false requirement, and your statement that anyone who has a conscience will believe the same is just an unfounded assertion. However, in a later post you talk about benefiting humanity in the long run, and if we take that idea instead, then it remains to be seen whether or not I'm up to the task, but I absolutely feel like I'm engaged in furthering that task.

In the long run, I think humanity will be best served by basing decisions on verifiable reality. I think we should convince people to work actively to preserve ourselves and gain the greatest well being for the greatest number of people now instead of trusting that Christ/Allah/Whoever will someday come and make everything right and give us a glorious afterlife. That will result in the most benefit to humanity in the long run. If you can work towards those goals while believing in God, then great, more power to you. But I reject the notion that God, who thus far can't be proven to even exist, and if he does exist we humans can't seem to come to any sort of consensus as to his actual nature, is the ultimate arbiter of human morality.

Either you're not making any sense, or I'm just completely misunderstanding what you're trying to say here, because recognizing that there's no way to truly know if God exists does not logically lead to a conclusion that God is directly contactable by humans. If there is any connection at all there you've left out a ton of steps.

Well, I did leave out a few steps, but I think I've filled them in up above. I didn't mean to say that there is no way "to truly know if God exists"; I meant to say that if God has no desire to talk to us when we attempt to contact God, then that God is pretty useless, and is virtually equivalent (as far as we can tell) to no God at all. So if one is going to believe in God, one might just as well believe in a God that does want to communicate with us.

Okay, that makes more sense.

Kevin, thanks for engaging me on this, I've enjoyed our conversation. I disagree with you on a lot of things, but you seem like a good guy. If you lived near me I'd have you over for dinner.

[_Nightlion]

Boyd Packer says he does not know among his fellow key holders who do WHAT? Nothing? No seeking the answer and unfolding the mysteries of eternity? Just dumb stones today, dumb stones tomorrow, dumb stones forever? And you hang on their every world huh? lol

I don't believe in the omniscience of God; why should I believe in the omniscience of God's apostles? They make it their business to find out what God has to tell them about the running of the LDS Church; what God tells them they act on; what God doesn't tell them of necessity is unclear to them. That does not mean they are not in a position to tell us what we need to know. God has told them everything that we need to know in our current stage of life.

Yes, I do "hang on their every" word; what alternative is there for someone committed to doing the will of God?

Oh, gee, let me see, perhaps live by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

See how correct I was about Mormon blinders? If the GAs have not mentioned it then you do no need to know it. HELLO!

The increasing number of LDS homosexuals do not need to know if God made them that way or if it was something perhaps they neglected doing before they got here or if they purposely planned on being gay to attempt to circumvent a loss of Light and Truth which 1/3rd of the hosts of heaven thought it important enough to defy God to keep in the beginning.

Sorry, I am hinting at things no LDS Gas has any clue about.

Here are the hard facts of spiritual life Kevin. GAs are forced to have to think about all the problems, if they got any heart at all they do. They had the keys and calling to be enabled to ask God and get an answer.

Any man of God who carries a question in his heart all the day long will be led to revelation that will open up something, anything new that could help. LDS GAs are not getting anything new. Either they do not care enough to worry about it and nothing rests upon their minds in faith, hope and charity towards solving problems OR they are not men of God who have won their positions some other way. hmm?

[_Drifting]

Do you believe handshakes are required to gain entry to the CK? Yes/No

No comment.

That's fair enough.

You have highlighted the difference between a religion and a cult.
You can talk openly about the rituals and ordinances of a religion.
A cult on the other hand, has things thanears required to be kept hidden.

On the homosexuality point:

ELDER OAKS: Yes, homosexual feelings are controllable. Perhaps there is an inclination or susceptibility to such feelings that is a reality for some and not a reality for others. But out of such susceptibilities come feelings, and feelings are controllable. If we cater to the feelings, they increase the power of the temptation. If we yield to the temptation, we have committed sinful behavior. That pattern is the same for a person that covets someone else’s property and has a strong temptation to steal. It’s the same for a person that develops a taste for alcohol. It’s the same for a person that is born with a ‘short fuse,’ as we would say of a susceptibility to anger. If they let that susceptibility remain uncontrolled, it becomes a feeling of anger, and a feeling of anger can yield to behavior that is sinful and illegal.

So, if you discover that you are gay, Elder Oaks is saying that is akin to 'discovering' you want to rob a bank...

[_KevinSim]

maybe this will help, from a letter Stuart Matis wrote a few weeks before he shot himself on the steps of a stake center in Los Altos back in 2000:

I read an article about a year or two ago. I don't know if it was about Stuart Matis, but it was about a gay young man who shot himself to death on the steps of an LDS chapel. The article said that the young man's bishop told him that God would rather have him alive and out of the LDS Church than suicidal in the church. In my opinion that was good counsel, and I don't understand why the young man didn't follow it.

If I felt strongly enough about my sexual orientation that I would think seriously about killing myself over it, then I would also feel strongly enough about it to leave the church over it; why suicide then? I think I could say the same thing about my wife Sandy, due to the way she was raised, should she have decided she was a lesbian. Sandy was raised in the LDS Church and so was I, so maybe the problem isn't with the Church; maybe the problem is how people are raised. Sandy was raised by parents who encouraged her to think for myself; I was raised by parents who at least didn't discourage me from thinking for myself. I can see how someone raised by parents who hammered home that the Church was everything, and that the child was nothing if s/he ever left the Church, might feel like her/his life was over if s/he left it.

[_KevinSim]

Maybe:

1. You did not get actually through to a deity at all, but just got a burst of spiritual static that your brain misinterpreted.

2. The deity you got through to was not Yahweh but Loki, who had fun setting you up to spend years and pay many tithing dollars as a Mormon.

How do you know that neither of those things happened?

I asked my question in full faith that a good God was in control of the universe that wanted me to know Her/His will, that was able to answer prayers. That God must know that if I asked Her/Him a question and that God didn't give me an answer, then I would never have any way of ever knowing that God's will. So that God would answer.

The direct answer to your question is that if I got the mentioned "burst of spiritual static" or if Loki gave me an answer to mess me up, then in either of those two cases I would have gotten two answers, not one. Spiritual static might (I presume) come up any time, and might not any time, and Loki might insert his mischief any time, and might not any time; but the good God who controls the universe would answer every time someone asks a foundational question, due to that God's goodness. That God will answer because S/He knows the asker needs an answer.

I didn't get two answers; I got one answer; and therefore I conclude that my answer came from the mentioned good God.

[_KevinSim]

But you are saying that the "other groups (like Evangelicals, Methodist, etc.)" God is not the LDS God ... is that right?

Most emphatically, yes!

There are things we believe in common about the deity that each of us believes controls the universe. Evangelicals, Methodists, and Latter-day Saints all believe that God is the Father of Jesus Christ, for example, and that he wants us to pray to Him.

But Evangelicals tend to believe things about God that I personally can't in good conscience believe.

[_Yoda]

more power to you, KevinSim.

if you can just refrain from voting for official discrimination then i have nothing against you or any other believer.

Palerobber, I could probably try to guess what you mean by "official discrimination," but it would probably be a lot more productive if you told me what you mean yourself.

or you could stop pretending that it's not abundantly clear what i'm refering to.

I don't know that I am 100% sure what you are talking about, Palerobber. Are you referring to the gay marriage proposition, or something else?

[_Yoda]

But you are saying that the "other groups (like Evangelicals, Methodist, etc.)" God is not the LDS God ... is that right?

Most emphatically, yes!

There are things we believe in common about the deity that each of us believes controls the universe. Evangelicals, Methodists, and Latter-day Saints all believe that God is the Father of Jesus Christ, for example, and that he wants us to pray to Him.

But Evangelicals tend to believe things about God that I personally can't in good conscience believe.

Examples?