Another What's the Alternative Thread

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_Dr. Shades
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Re: Another What's the Alternative Thread

Post by _Dr. Shades »

KevinSim:

Is this entire exercise just your way of talking yourself into continuing to believe in a faith system about which, deep down inside, you're having severe doubts?
"Finally, for your rather strange idea that miracles are somehow linked to the amount of gay sexual gratification that is taking place would require that primitive Christianity was launched by gay sex, would it not?"

--Louis Midgley
_PrickKicker
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Re: Another What's the Alternative Thread

Post by _PrickKicker »

Dr. Shades wrote:KevinSim:

Is this entire exercise just your way of talking yourself into continuing to believe in a faith system about which, deep down inside, you're having severe doubts?


I'd say... He still has a devout sig.
PrickKicker: I used to be a Narrow minded, short sighted, Lying, Racist, Homophobic, Pious, Moron. But they were all behavioral traits that I had learnt through Mormonism.
_KevinSim
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Re: Another What's the Alternative Thread

Post by _KevinSim »

Tchild wrote:Stay in Mormonism if you like. Or, explore other avenues if you like.

My decision is to do both. I will stay in Mormonism, but I will always keep my mind open to "other avenues," other ways of finding out about God, that anybody might offer me.

Tchild wrote:For me personally, Mormonism ceased to work and will never work again (maybe it will once our sun turns into a red giant and burns up our earth, the universe collapses in on itself and a new one is created in a future big bang 15-150 billion years in the future)...so Mormonism still has a chance, just not in this universe.

People keep talking about a faith or a philosophy "working," as if the faith or philosophy is a service, like one's phone service or electricity. I don't really care whether or not my faith "works"; I just care whether or not God wants me in it.
KevinSim

Reverence the eternal.
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Re: Another What's the Alternative Thread

Post by _PrickKicker »

KevinSim wrote:
Tchild wrote:Stay in Mormonism if you like. Or, explore other avenues if you like.

My decision is to do both. I will stay in Mormonism, but I will always keep my mind open to "other avenues," other ways of finding out about God, that anybody might offer me.

Tchild wrote:For me personally, Mormonism ceased to work and will never work again (maybe it will once our sun turns into a red giant and burns up our earth, the universe collapses in on itself and a new one is created in a future big bang 15-150 billion years in the future)...so Mormonism still has a chance, just not in this universe.

People keep talking about a faith or a philosophy "working," as if the faith or philosophy is a service, like one's phone service or electricity. I don't really care whether or not my faith "works"; I just care whether or not God wants me in it.


That is what I have done... I go, But I don't believe.
I don't hide my views under a bushel every now and then they try to Bushel me!

I am now hated, people leave when I enter the room.

My wife has started to suffer too, because of my views.

How kind is that?
PrickKicker: I used to be a Narrow minded, short sighted, Lying, Racist, Homophobic, Pious, Moron. But they were all behavioral traits that I had learnt through Mormonism.
_KevinSim
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Re: Another What's the Alternative Thread

Post by _KevinSim »

just me wrote:However, you are likely doing LESS to help future generations than an atheist philanthropist because you are giving the responsibility to another (unproven) entity.

The result in the end is the same. The atheist philanthropist will likely do a lot of good for a very long time, but s/he's not planning for permanence, and people don't often hit lofty goals they don't aim for. In the meanwhile my faith group also does a lot of good for a very long time. We could argue who does more for the downtrodden, the atheist philanthropist or the LDS Church, in the short term or medium term. But the fact remains that the philanthropist's benevolence will eventually run out, because it's designed to eventually run out; whereas if the LDS God does exist, then His benevolence will not run out.

just me wrote:Many, many atheists, agnostics and religionists are going about doing what they can to build a better world for future generations. Just because they believe that nothing can last for "eternity" does not mean their work is any less valuable.

I'm not trying to say that their work "is any less valuable." Everything in its place. There's a place for short term benevolence, and I'm prepared to admit that many atheists do quite well with short term benevolence. But there's also a place for permanent good.

just me wrote:You have been asked numerous times on this thread what exactly is the "good" that you want "preserved forever." When someone asks you ask them why they are asking. We have even given you answers to that question. Now answer me this, WHY won't you answer the simple question?

I answered that "simple question" quite a while back. How many times do I have to answer this question? I agree with the dictionary definition; the good that I want preserved forever is "moral excellence."
KevinSim

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_KevinSim
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Re: Another What's the Alternative Thread

Post by _KevinSim »

just me wrote:Are you doing enough Kevin?

Yes I am.

just me wrote:Can you give me a list of the specific things you have done this past month to "preserve some good things forever?"

Granted that everything I have done has been based on the assumption that a good deity exists who is guiding me. My point has always been that if one really does want some of that one's contributions to have permanent good effect, that one pretty much has to rely on the existence of that good deity and that deity's willingness to guide that one.

That being the case, then my efforts to build a good relationship with my wife, daughters, and son will preserve good things forever. My visits this past month to two of my home teaching families built relationships that will preserve good things forever.
KevinSim

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_KevinSim
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Re: Another What's the Alternative Thread

Post by _KevinSim »

just me wrote:Do you not realize that people are not in full agreement as to what is "good?"

That depends on what the things are that we're trying to classify as good or not good. That was the point of the question I was asking. You and I both consider open and honest discussion on this forum good, or we wouldn't be doing it.

To say different people have different ideas about what good is, and that therefore the term good is useless, is to consign the world to chaos and anarchy. It's a fact that in many nations around the world people with vastly different ideas about what good is, can live together in peace, allowed by law to have their different beliefs, and yet constrained by law from trampling on the rights of people with different views. That fact does not do away with the idea of good; in fact that fact itself is good; it's a good thing that people with differing viewpoints can co-exist with enforced respect for each other. This higher level good, meta-good, so to speak, is precisely the good I'm talking about.
KevinSim

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_KevinSim
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Re: Another What's the Alternative Thread

Post by _KevinSim »

Themis wrote:I would agree that more money should be put into research and solutions, but one of the big problems here is science deniers. Unfortunately most of them seem to come from Christian religions, especially LDS. Atheists and Agnostics are doing much better here.

Themis, what are the groups you're talking about doing to solve the problem with science deniers?

Themis wrote:Again there are many people trying to work on this problem as well, and many programs in place. The problem again is relgioous groups like LDS who refuse to see the problem and fight against it.

Once again you talk about people working toward a solution and you talk about a problem hindering them. What are these people doing to solve this problem?
KevinSim

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Re: Another What's the Alternative Thread

Post by _KevinSim »

Themis wrote:The only thing we can do right now is to continue to increase our knowledge of the universe(something being done) to be able to understand someday if their is a solution. This probably would not come anywhere near our lifetimes, but then we do have billions of years to get there. Also we first have to make sure of near term existence is not threatened like with Global warming or population problems.

So this generation doesn't need to work on it since the problem is around a hundred billion years away. But look! The next generation is also a hundred billion years away from it too. And so on and so on. By the time Universal Heat Death is so close to us we have to do something about it, will there be enough time to work out a way to survive it?

This is the way humanity has been solving many of its survival-threatening crises, wait until the crisis becomes imminent, and then devoting all its energy to resolving it. This has worked somewhat in the past, but it's the virtual equivalent of putting a gun to one's head and playing Russian Roulette. Sooner or later that gun is going to go off.

No, the best way to solve crises like this is to not wait until they're imminent; we've got to start working on them way before they're due to arrive.

Themis wrote:It doesn't need to be the ultimate goal right now in order to work towards it, and we still are not to any point to even know if it is possible. You need to get your priorities right. I don't spend much time thinking about since it would distract from ever getting there. You need to understand what the foundation needs to be in place first.

What's the problem with having forever preservation our ultimate goal? How would that goal "distract from ever getting there"? I have no problem with the foundation needing "to be in place first," but I think having forever preservation our ultimate goal, is crucial to the whole process.
KevinSim

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_KevinSim
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Re: Another What's the Alternative Thread

Post by _KevinSim »

Drifting wrote:This thread has become a dogs breakfast.

Kevin wants people to post what 'real good' can be preserved by people outside of Mormonism for eternity. Yet cannot tell us whatever he means by real good.

This is kind of bizarre, Drifting. I did say what I meant by real good a long time ago; I agreed with the dictionary definition; real good is "moral excellence."

Drifting wrote:When asked to provide examples of 'real good' being done by God, Kevin admits he can't.

For one thing God preserves our lives. That's real good.
KevinSim

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