Faithful TBM to doubter in 6 hours on ex-Mormon Reddit

[Dr Exiled]

Had you been considering the information for a while prior to having the "will" element? I think a lot of people weigh the group vs. out group decision for a time prior to making the leap, and when they do, it seems like it was all of a sudden. Was that your experience?

Looking back, I can see a build up to the emotional transition, but when it happened, it did feel sudden. It was a situation of abusive church leaders, with some trauma (violent church member) and emotionally it was like being kicked in the face by the church, but in slow motion, until getting to a critical point when I had to detach myself. That's when, intellectually, the picture was complete with all the pieces and very clear.

It's a demonstration of the saying that those who are converted emotionally (and intellectually, in my case) will not be deconverted on a rational basis alone. There must be an emotional transition, a transformation of the will also.

Thanks. I had forgotten that you had explained your experience in depth before. No need to relive it on this thread.

[Meadowchik]

Thanks. I had forgotten that you had explained your experience in depth before. No need to relive it on this thread.

Of course. My intent is to draw that distinction between emotional and intellectual reasoning. It is precisely why internet exposure still is not enough on its own.

[Dr Exiled]

Thanks. I had forgotten that you had explained your experience in depth before. No need to relive it on this thread.

Of course. My intent is to draw that distinction between emotional and intellectual reasoning. It is precisely why internet exposure still is not enough on its own.

It's a good point. My experience was kind of a slow path out and looking back, there was a lot of emotional baggage to work through even though I had major doubts starting much earlier.

[Kishkumen]

Unfortunately, its aim is to support an organization which defrauds its members of their money, lies to them about how the organization came to be and is run, and spiritually abuses minorities within its membership. Other than that, it's a feel-good meaningless catchphrase that Kevin cannot adequately explain. Everyone would agree "Make America Great Again" is a worthwhile goal, but the phrase is being used to destroy America, not make it great.

I understand why you say that, but that strikes me as a very one-sided perspective.

[drumdude]

Unfortunately, its aim is to support an organization which defrauds its members of their money, lies to them about how the organization came to be and is run, and spiritually abuses minorities within its membership. Other than that, it's a feel-good meaningless catchphrase that Kevin cannot adequately explain. Everyone would agree "Make America Great Again" is a worthwhile goal, but the phrase is being used to destroy America, not make it great.

I understand why you say that, but that strikes me as a very one-sided perspective.

What is the other side?

[Kishkumen]

What is the other side?

That the LDS Church applies a divine law of tithing to do many good things, above all providing millions of its members a spiritual home and community. That it does its best to deal with the challenges posed by critics who attack its founding narrative for the purposes of destroying that spiritual home and community for those who value those things. It is struggling with rapid cultural and civilizational change imperfectly with results that do lead to harm but also prevent many from being completely disoriented by the rapid changes.

The LDS Church is, like any human organization, flawed. That said, its critics overemphasize its flaws and downplay its good points. Everyone should feel at liberty to choose LDS community or choose otherwise. I see no reason to tear it down to those who happily choose it. I don’t trust viewpoints that are negative to the point of dark caricature.

[drumdude]

What is the other side?

That the LDS Church applies a divine law of tithing to do many good things, above all providing millions of its members a spiritual home and community. That it does its best to deal with the challenges posed by critics who attack its founding narrative for the purposes of destroying that spiritual home and community for those who value those things. That it is struggling with rapid cultural and civilizational change imperfectly with results that do lead to harm but also prevent many from being completely disoriented by the rapid changes.

The LDS Church is, like any human organization, flawed. That said, its critics overemphasize its flaws and downplay its good points. Everyone should feel at liberty to choose LDS community or choose otherwise. I see no reason to tear it down to those who happily choose it. I don’t trust viewpoints that are negative to the point of dark caricature.

You could have said the same thing about Theranos. Why is everyone trying to attack a corporation that just wants to help the world improve access to medical testing? Why does it matter that there was some fraud if they were trying their best? Why did the world decide to destroy a company that was employing hundreds of workers and was possibly even on a path towards developing a legitimate product?

They got caught lying. A very significant amount of lying. And so did the Mormon church. Also engaged in a very significant amount of deception. Religions, however, enjoy a much greater level of protection and freedom than corporations. See Scientology, for the extreme example.

I listened to Bill Reel and RFM yesterday on their show validate the opinions of a believing Mormon on their show. I see a lot of that charity coming from ex-Mormons, but it never gets noticed because the emotional response to criticism of Mormonism obscures it.

If ignorance is the only thing keeping someone within Mormonism, you would blame people like us for educating them and causing them to leave? That is entirely on the church, in my opinion. It’s not my responsibility to lay out the facts in a way that preserves faith, especially when that way does not exist without dishonesty.

Staying within Mormonism is a perfectly valid choice and works well for some people. I suppose I could add that sentence to the end of every single criticism I make of the religion. But I don’t think I should have to until Mormonism also tells the other side of their story.

[KevinSim]

It’s the community that’s “true”, not the Church. Your mission showed you that.

IHAQ, how did my mission show me that?

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

It’s the community that’s “true”, not the Church. Your mission showed you that.

IHAQ, how did my mission show me that?

1) If the Church wasn’t true, whatever truth means to you, would you want to know?

2) Would you put in the work to study it out in good faith? <- good faith just means honesty, with sincerity, no game playing

- Doc

[KevinSim]

You have a bad habit of taking other people's statements and turning them into questions to avoid responding to the statement.

So do you, Fence Sitter.

Why do you do that?

See?

No one said anything about the friend feeling God was obligated to do anything. She believes she talks to God, literally, so she asks Him questions.

I believe someone can count on God answering an initial question about God, because that someone needs that information, and there's no other way that someone can get it. It's not clear at all that that someone has the same amount of need to know if her/his spouse is going to stick with her/him eternally, so that someone cannot be as certain that God will answer her/his question about her/his spouse.

What do you do when you encounter someone who believes God has told him everyone else is wrong about their religious beliefs?

You congratulate that someone on establishing contact with God. What else can a real theist do?