Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon

[_Uncle Ed]

Defrauding people : A minor thing. Hey, at least he didn't kill anyone!

"... william law alleged that joseph smith had sought to
control by ecclesiastical authority the financial affairs of the saints."

The Laws only arrived in Nauvoo after assuring themselves that the chances to make money were good. After their break with Joseph Smith they could not sell their land because the majority of potential buyers were Mormons who obeyed Joseph Smith's insistence that members only buy and sell through him as trustee in trust of the church. (see below for why that was not untypical behavior)
http://byustudies.BYU.edu/PDFLibrary/22.1CookWilliam-812be19f-f962-4091-bf12-ff7ca3fd7502.pdf

Going back to Kirtland, to possibly Joseph Smith's most mentioned "fraud" with the Kirtland bank: "In May of 1837, a general banking panic sparked in the eastern states and spread across the country. Joseph Smith withdrew from the Safety Society in June, and publicly warned the Saints about continuing to use the Safety Society’s notes. The Safety Society failed around November." http://www.fairlds.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/white-KSS.pdf Joseph Smith lost heavily, despite his earlier reinvestment of personal money to endeavor to keep the Kirtland bank viable.

Joseph Smith died some $100K in debt. This was largely caused by his (typical for religious leaders of the 19th century) personal finances being inextricably linked to those of the church, which he supported through his personal financing over the years. His assets were largely "illiquid", being tied up in land, and his liquid assets were always limited, i.e. he had little cash on hand; this was the situation in Kirtland for many Mormons, thus the theoretical advantages and need for a bank. There was no intended or subsequent fraud whatsoever by Joseph Smith....

[_Uncle Ed]

The Kirtland banking fiasco, like the rest of Joseph Smith's endeavors, is controversial. He evidently announced months ahead of time that he disagreed with the speculation spirit that had entered into it and was withdrawing his money from it. He "prophesied" that it would not prosper with the spirit of speculation that had entered into it. The banking disaster that swept the Union caught the Kirtland bank and it collapsed. Joseph Smith was then blamed for everything, rational argument was not possible, his life was threatened and he fled. How cowardly of him!.

CFR

"Joseph Smith warned that if the Safety Society was not conducted on the basis of righteous principles it would not stand. Given the dishonest and fraudulent behaviour of Warren Parrish and others, it could not have survived." http://www.fairlds.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/white-KSS.pdf I wish he had included the Joseph Smith quote directly, which, If I recall correctly, is in his diary/journal at the time. But that's the best I can do at the moment, being out of here....

[_Molok]

There was no intended or subsequent fraud whatsoever by Joseph Smith....

I was referring to the treasure digging; You know, the thing people were paying him to do that you said he was lying about?

[_badseed]

Joseph Smith lost heavily, despite his earlier reinvestment of personal money to endeavor to keep the Kirtland bank viable.

Joseph Smith died some $100K in debt.

So I'm coming to this late so please forgive my ignorance. Are you suggesting that Joseph Smith's losses show that he was not involved in fraud in Nauvoo and Kirtland in anyway? Or am I misreading this?

[_Molok]

Defrauding people : A minor thing. Hey, at least he didn't kill anyone!

Hopefully not.

(However there is this: https://dcms.lds.org/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=FL2185653&dps_func=stream)

Wow, that's really interesting, thank you for showing me that, Nevo.

[_Kishkumen]

Oh, I do agree. That's why I think it is both pointless and misleading to say things like

I have not seen anything in these findings that would render the Book of Mormon a text unworthy of scriptural status, or incapable of being viewed as divinely inspired.

Because nothing in any 'findings' could ever render any text, including 'The Cat in the Hat' "unworthy of scriptural status, or incapable of being viewed as divinely inspired".

Yes, I get the fact that you humbly disdain people's scriptures. Far be it from you to look down on anyone else. You are so egalitarian in your views that you just settle for calling them bull crap or comparing them to children's fiction.

We get that.

That is the reason I wrote the last quarter of my post. Sure, if you cultivate a naïve understanding in people, then it is no wonder that they will fly apart when that simplistic view is challenged.

I think the difference between the two of us is that you and I place a much different value on the more nuanced or mature view of religion.

"Nuanced or mature": what's not to like? I mean, how can one ever imagine anyone not thinking that their own point of view on a religious matter was not "nuanced and mature"? Those adjectives tell us nothing except that the person who uses them is describing their own religious beliefs.

People who actually believe in the doctrines currently taught to converts by the CoJCoLDS are, it seems "naïve" and "simplistic". I find that attitude deeply patronizing and superior, and would prefer to confer on them the dignity of just being plain wrong.

Because, as we can plainly see from your sterling example, calling them false and stupid is, to the contrary, very respectful and egalitarian.

Yeah, so sue me, Chap. I actually do believe that people can have varying degrees of sophistication in their understanding of a topic. I look to education as a means of raising people's level of sophistication in their understanding, and I am crazy enough to believe that if they apply themselves to their education, they can succeed in seeing things in a more interesting and rewarding way.

You would think I were a college professor with talk like that.

But maybe you are right. Maybe I am naïve and simplistic for thinking such things. Instead I should rely upon the tyro philosophizing and moralizing of people like you who just find the whole damned thing stupid and destructive, no matter how many people feel differently about it, or regardless of your inability to prove your case.

[_Equality]

Joseph Smith died some $100K in debt. This was largely caused by his (typical for religious leaders of the 19th century) personal finances being inextricably linked to those of the church, which he supported through his personal financing over the years. His assets were largely "illiquid", being tied up in land, and his liquid assets were always limited, i.e. he had little cash on hand; this was the situation in Kirtland for many Mormons, thus the theoretical advantages and need for a bank. There was no intended or subsequent fraud whatsoever by Joseph Smith....

And Allen Stanford will die penniless and in prison. I guess he never defrauded anyone.

[_ZelphtheGreat]

Ask an active member who believes and you will get the answer: Deseret Book.

[_Blixa]

I can't make out that signature, Nevo. Little help?

It's "Hinkle" (George M. Hinkle).

The name is clearer here: http://eadview.lds.org/digitalAsset/image/full/FL2185655

Thanks! I'd pretty much forgotten about this (in fact I'm not certain where I ran across it) and its always amazing to see an actual document. I love all the new digitized historical documents the church is releasing. I can't keep up.

[_Uncle Ed]

Joseph Smith lost heavily, despite his earlier reinvestment of personal money to endeavor to keep the Kirtland bank viable.

Joseph Smith died some $100K in debt.

So I'm coming to this late so please forgive my ignorance. Are you suggesting that Joseph Smith's losses show that he was not involved in fraud in Nauvoo and Kirtland in anyway? Or am I misreading this?

Joseph Smith took out a loan at another bank and put that loan into the KSS. When it died he lost more than any other single investor, or so the evidence would indicate. No fraud, just lousy money skills, and hubris mainly caused by his (at the time) too high expectations of the good will and intentions of his fellow men. They were the ones who sabotaged the KSS by their "speculation". It was a wild time in the USA financially and even the Mormons got caught up in the get rich quick enthusiasm. Joseph Smith seems to have not contracted that disease.

But the main clerk at the KSS, Warren Parrish, was also Joseph Smith's scribe and close friend. When Joseph Smith was on trial shortly before he resigned as the KSS's director, Parrish was on the stand as a witness for the prosecution and when asked if he knew of any criminal character in Joseph Smith Parrish said "no". He was already growing disaffected with Joseph Smith but did not choose this opportune moment to "expose" him. This was at about the time Joseph Smith took out that loan and put it into the KSS, trying to save it. Then Parrish turned on Joseph Smith completely during the summer of 1837 and was later accused of embezzlement. Joseph Smith obtained a search warrant to search Parrish's large trunk, but by then it was removed to another place and was never searched. Shortly after that Joseph Smith et al. "fled" to Far West MO. When things had run their course and Joseph Smith found himself finally free of his enemies and safe in Nauvoo IL, he retained all of the church's financial apparatus in himself, having learned "by sad experience" not to trust anyone. Parrish had to have been a huge disappointment and hurt to him. So by retaining the reins of economic control on the secular and religious level, Joseph Smith opened himself to further accusations of "predatory" behavior: now he was the speculator, jacking up the cost of plots in Nauvoo and forbidding anyone in the church to buy land from anybody but Joseph Smith: who in his capacity as trustee in trust for the church was the only man to deal with. The sale of plots in the city only through the church/Joseph Smith ended up being ammunition for traitors such as John C. Bennett, and disaffected friends like Walmart Law. Law went to his grave asserting that Joseph Smith's religion was only a humbug got up to make money. But he was bitter because his and his brother Wilson's economic investments around Nauvoo ended up being big losses to them, once they broke with the Mormons and were labeled as enemies. But the facts are that if Joseph Smith got up Mormonism to get rich he really stunk at that part of his "fraud", and not least because he was always giving what he had to hand away to help others. This is well attested by his contemporaries, hardly the actions/characteristics of a "predator"....